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Author Topic: Combat Training  (Read 34705 times)
Darth Stingere
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« Reply #60 on: December 27, 2011, 02:06:06 AM »

I am biased because I know guys in Delta, but given what they go through, and the level to which they train to... Not to mention the fact that they are America's Tier 1 asset. My vote is for Delta Force, they're the guys you don't even hear about.

And you do hear about the SOS? They aren't Russia's top of the line, that would be Zaslon, but I cast my vote for the SOS in this case. The only group I believe is equal to the SOS is the CIA SAD SOG. As a disclaimer I am also heavily biased.
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Luna
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« Reply #61 on: December 27, 2011, 02:25:18 AM »

From what I understand, it's pretty tough to compare the two, as the SOS is solely for killing and Delta frequently saves people. So one-on-one, I would say that an SOS operative would win every time. But in a group situation, I would say that Delta wins because assassins like the SOS don't work well with others Roll Eyes

I speak from a point of inexperience (Lady Stingere is by far the best fighter I've ever met, and the bit about assassins not working well together was based on being around her Wink), so I'm not too up on the lore of the FSB or JSOC, but I have met Marines before (and my grandfather was in the Navy in WWII, but in this conversation, I think the navy is a little out of its league Wink).

As for combat training, all I have is what I've learned from SOTJ (and I can unashamedly say that she has kicked my @$$ in duels on many occasions) and from challenging Darth Stingie to a duel with bokken (that was a little embarrassing Embarrassed).
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ThreadJack
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« Reply #62 on: December 27, 2011, 02:52:48 AM »



I speak from a point of inexperience (Lady Stingere is by far the best fighter I've ever met, and the bit about assassins not working well together was based on being around her Wink), so I'm not too up on the lore of the FSB or JSOC, but I have met Marines before (and my grandfather was in the Navy in WWII, but in this conversation, I think the navy is a little out of its league Wink).


Tell that to the SEALS.
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Luna
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« Reply #63 on: December 27, 2011, 04:03:01 AM »

Tell that to the SEALS.

You tell that to the SEALs Wink The CIA SAD SOG will take some SEALs, but only the very best. I did indeed forget about them, as there were no SEALs back in WWII. There was the Amphibious Scout & Raider School, but no actual SEALs.
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Jammo
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« Reply #64 on: December 27, 2011, 05:58:09 PM »

SEALs are cool. I got to pick their brains a bit when they did some cross-training on Stinger with us. I've also had the misfortune to train with Marine Force Recon on just one occasion... they are not human.
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Darth Stingere
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« Reply #65 on: December 27, 2011, 07:23:44 PM »

SEALs are cool. I got to pick their brains a bit when they did some cross-training on Stinger with us. I've also had the misfortune to train with Marine Force Recon on just one occasion... they are not human.

That's how the infantry troops described us when we worked with them. I was surprised by their lack of creativity.
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Luna
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« Reply #66 on: December 27, 2011, 07:58:38 PM »

That's how the infantry troops described us when we worked with them. I was surprised by their lack of creativity.

That's still how I describe you Wink
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Darth Stingere
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« Reply #67 on: December 27, 2011, 08:07:03 PM »

That's still how I describe you Wink
This is a fact. But really, our infantry is pathetic. I was very frustrated with them and their lack of autonomy. They don't even have permission (or knowledge) to build explosives.
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Master Rel
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« Reply #68 on: December 29, 2011, 07:09:23 AM »

I do find it curious that we describe an entire group of people as one way or another based upon training, service, or other aspect.

US Marine is one way or German KSK (Kommando Spezialkräfte) are another.

A person is a person, pretty much across the board.

When you speak of the average special forces type...let us say 24yrs old, 5'11", 180lbs...runs 3-5 miles 3-5 times a week, swims miles upon miles every week, scuba dives, jumps out of planes, shoots guns, boxes/wrestles/grapples/etc., studies tactics, works on troop movements, etc...within reason, an individual is just that, an individual.

Now if we are considering a 7' 300lb type compared to a 5'5" 130lb type, well that is a different story.

I served 21yrs between US Marine Corps, US Coast Guard, and US Homeland Def Anti-terrorism...I was on the force recon tract in the Marines but a knee injury from a repelling accident kept me out of the jump program...but I went on to be a rescue diver and rescue tower climber...worked with US Marine Force Recon, Navy Seals, Army Airborne 3rd Group, and Delta Force...mostly for cross training and field exercises.

There are exceptional individuals everywhere...the more specific and demanding a group's mission then the more likely the chance for these exceptional types to be grouped together.

200,000+ active duty US Marines...all shoot well, very well...vast majority are in shape, most in very good shape...and are well trained, disciplined, etc.

Of these within this fairly small organization we find a niche of special operations, Force Recon or Recon...with 400-500 members.

These 400-500 are some of the best that the already demanding standard that is required just to be a Marine...so the chances are that the best of the best of the US Marine Corps will have spent some time in Force Recon or the Drill Field (boot camp drill instructors) or both.

Within the 400-500, there are exceptional people...the same is true of any service, special forces or not.

When you specialize the training and the focus then you will get a specific creature, regardless of country or name.

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Beyond any internet hero stories, I would say it is the mentality and purpose of the training that will determine a higher level of combat effectiveness.

Those trained to search and rescue will not be trained the same way as a counter terrorism team would be.

Like comparing apples, oranges, and pickled herring.

*****

As far numbers go, one would could infer that a country with huge numbers of people within the military, vast resources, and willingness to commit to military action will have the better potential of large groups of well trained bad-ass types.

But that does not mean that tiny Liechtenstein could not produce the baddest guy on the planet...people are people after all, we mostly fall within a certain range of raw potential.

But the larger countries will tend to have the more well known and within reason the more effective units of exceptional individuals.

A fair amount of consideration goes to location...the extremes will draw out the strengths and weaknesses quickly...be it arctic or arid.

*****

I have a pretty strong background in actual combat training.

With extensive close combat, small arms combat, and infantry support with mortars.

I taught combat knife fighting at ITS (Infantry Training School) as well as improvised weapons at Escape and Evasion School.

While stationed in Cuba I was part of the training team that focused on sentry removal training.

And beyond all this...as strong as I was...as tough as I was...I was a small fish...there were many stronger, faster, and tougher within arms reach at any given time.

I found it was the willingness to use the training that made the difference.

Action and reaction in appropriate and measured value.

So without any unnecessary internet feather preening, I think that there are exceptional types everywhere...but in all honesty I doubt too many hang out on internet forums dealing with science fiction dueling with costumes and such.

I am retired, and I do not claim to be elite special forces...my best years of this nature were in the late 1980's and early 1990's.

I do have some special forces/operations training/experience but people need to remember that everyone within the various special forces have people within them that are trained in other career fields...cooks, medics, electronics, admin, supply, etc..  It is a balance of cross training and focus that creates effective special forces...people able to do more with less. I ended up going the support route due my knee, but that is the nature of it...work through 100 applicants to find 10...work through the 10 to find the 1 that meets the basic starting point...take 100 of these types to develop 25 functional special forces types.  Desire, talent, potential, etc. is not enough, it all has to come together...avoid injury...get passed the breakdowns...etc.

So the general toughness of mind and body is a common factor within any special forces.

But ALL special forces have specialties and focus of mission, hence the special aspect  Smiley

You really would not want to meet any of these individuals in the wrong situation...they will rarely be around regular folks...they are not usually hanging out at the Starbucks or comicbook store...they tend to stay on mission track for the entire functional portion of the career path or until they break.

One funny thing that amuses me to no end is how many US Marine Snipers I have met through the years.

Seems that 1:2 former Marines claim to be snipers, until I note that I was in the Marine Corps and attended Battalion level scout sniper training...which is not the full training.  And to get to that point I was a three time expert rifle shooter. Again within a service full of great shooters; the US Marine Corps has this down pat, we can all shoot well...some are just better...I was good but by no means was I great.

Great shooters go on to be scout snipers...I trained with various individuals...but in all that time and training, I only met a dozen or so...but afterwards, meeting former and ex Marines (and yes there is a difference) it seems that most were scout snipers.

While training active duty with them I meet a dozen.

While retired I meet hundreds.

About as likely as my light saber being a real light saber and I having jedi powers  Smiley

*****

Real Combat Training, I have some.  Enough to get me through a zombie apocalypse to be sure   Shocked

Enough to recommend that light saber duels remain friendly  Smiley

But I also have enough experience and maturity to temper any such training onto a back burner...at least until the zombies start popping up or I meet a Sith...a bad day to be a dark jedi...

 Grin


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Darth Stingere
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« Reply #69 on: December 29, 2011, 01:32:41 PM »

Very good points. The reason I refer to the various groups as a whole is because back home, we are trained to be the same as the man next to you and to treat everyone the same. That being said, I am a good example of how you cannot generalize even with our forces. Early in training it was clear that I worked better autonomously, so my training had an emphasis on performing targeted killings independantly, even though I technically went through the same training as the others. After the training I had a team, of course, but since I was more independant I would often work seperately from them and sometimes even reinforcing the lesser forces. So, in laymen's terms, the rest of my team was elite soldiers, and I was an elite assassin who happened to be on a team of soldiers, a more traditional spetsnaz operative.
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Jammo
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« Reply #70 on: December 29, 2011, 02:55:57 PM »

Oh man, if I had a nickle for every "Scout Sniper" I've met, I'd be rich. I was just a simple Stinger Gunner and I never really got to use it in an angry kind of way. I'd say I use more of my tech stuff that I picked these days unless I have a lightsaber in my hand, but I must thank MCMAP for my footwork and concepts of spacing.
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SOTJ
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« Reply #71 on: December 29, 2011, 06:02:15 PM »

Oh man, if I had a nickle for every "Scout Sniper" I've met, I'd be rich. I was just a simple Stinger Gunner and I never really got to use it in an angry kind of way. I'd say I use more of my tech stuff that I picked these days unless I have a lightsaber in my hand, but I must thank MCMAP for my footwork and concepts of spacing.

Why does everyone want to be a sniper? Are video games taking their toll on society? Wink Jedi Relmeob mentioned how small countries can still produce some badass soldiers - I, for one, would not want to mess around with the Israeli Mossad or the Belarusian KGB (Belarus is not a small country, but not a very significant one, either).
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Master Rel
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« Reply #72 on: December 29, 2011, 06:05:09 PM »

I mentioned the small country because compared to a very large country the potential for large groups of elite types is rather hard to compare, but on an individual basis the potential is there...people are people.


 Grin
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Master Rel
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« Reply #73 on: December 29, 2011, 06:15:41 PM »

Why does everyone want to be a sniper? Are video games taking their toll on society? Wink Jedi Relmeob mentioned how small countries can still produce some badass soldiers - I, for one, would not want to mess around with the Israeli Mossad or the Belarusian KGB (Belarus is not a small country, but not a very significant one, either).

Long long before video games US Marine snipers are renown for their complete package and performance.

Compared to regular military the average US Marine is a sniper just because of the way we train...longer ranges for the common practice and record ranges.

There are sharpshooters among the regular Marine infantry, but they are not scout sniper trained.

Scout sniper is an actual MOS (military occupational specialty) or career path.  There is much more to being a sniper than the rile and shooting it...so to be a scout sniper is to be the best shot among a good of very good shooters...top guns.

So it is a prestige position that many look up to and the vast majority can not reach...the demands are extreme...these guys are ridiculous shots.

That is why  Smiley

Force Recon is a small group of the most fit, most focused, and to be honest flat out stone hearted killers...again, among a group of fit, well trained, and bad ass types...to stand out within this small group is difficult, yet the scout sniper is an elite even among the Force Recon.
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Darth Stingere
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« Reply #74 on: December 29, 2011, 06:29:29 PM »

Force Recon is a small group of the most fit, most focused, and to be honest flat out stone hearted killers...again, among a group of fit, well trained, and bad ass types...to stand out within this small group is difficult, yet the scout sniper is an elite even among the Force Recon.

It sounds like I would get along well with them (or at least it would be an even match-up). Being stone-hearted makes you a more efficient killer, and their training was enough to earn my respect when we were training to specifically combat foreign spetsnaz. SOTJ mentioned the Mossad and the KGB - I would rather face a KGB operative than a Mossad operative. The KGB is a little out-of-date. They still have some of the best assassins, but once they split from us, they lost the best, in my opinion. I was too young at the time to really understand what was going on, though. The Mossad, on the other hand, have the largest concentration of the best assassins in the Middle East.
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