The Jedi may have asked for it....

[DarthRegol]

So more of an opinion chat here, but upon reading the novelization of ROTS, I began to see that the council was a lot more aggressive and demeaning of Anakin than they were in the movies, along with the fact that some of the chapters involve discussions of the jedi actually suggesting that they take over the republic to protect it from corruption, and though their intentions may have been good, it was difficult to feel bad for all of them at order 66...any thoughts?

[Darth Tepes]

So more of an opinion chat here, but upon reading the novelization of ROTS, I began to see that the council was a lot more aggressive and demeaning of Anakin than they were in the movies, along with the fact that some of the chapters involve discussions of the jedi actually suggesting that they take over the republic to protect it from corruption, and though their intentions may have been good, it was difficult to feel bad for all of them at order 66...any thoughts?

The Consensus (Even Luke says so) is that the Jedi shot themselves in the foot. Did they deserve to be nearly wiped out...no.  But their hubris and actions lead to their own demise. Especially the council's treatment of Anakin.

[Maestro Jones]

The Jedi of the prequels are a prime example of "Pride comes before a fall".  The same thing holds true for the Empire and the First Order.  Just another life lesson you can learn from Star Wars.

[Saso Is-kor]

An in-depth analysis of the Jedi Order as the supposed "good guys" of Star Wars is really a fascinating one. A cursory viewing of the Prequels tends to give you the overall theme but really the more you look into it, the more it becomes super obvious that they really aren't the pillars of enlightenment and justice that we tend to associate them with. The Clone Wars series really had the time to flesh that out, to pull out an example, especially around the episodes that dealt with Anakin's brush with his past of slavery. I mean it's a practice that is banned in the Republic and yet whole planets and cartels are involved in it, meanwhile the Jedi sit in their tall towers and debate pointlessly. It just goes to highlight how the Order's traditions and norms grew to a point where few dared to point out how damaging they were (looking at you Qui-gon Jinn). It makes them MUCH more interesting characters though, in my opinion, and Star Wars is all the better because of it.

Interestingly, looking at the Darth Bane trilogy, one could argue that the Sith had betrayed their very nature as well... fascinating.

[Darth Logos]

The Consensus (Even Luke says so) is that the Jedi shot themselves in the foot. Did they deserve to be nearly wiped out...no.  But their hubris and actions lead to their own demise. Especially the council's treatment of Anakin.

Perhaps that was a smaller note of the Grand Plan coupled with the Rule of Two. The severely diminished number of Sith gave rise to the myth that the Sith were extinct, allowing the Jedi to grow arrogant that they were unchallenged in the galaxy, and that they were the ultimate good.

An in-depth analysis of the Jedi Order as the supposed "good guys" of Star Wars is really a fascinating one. A cursory viewing of the Prequels tends to give you the overall theme but really the more you look into it, the more it becomes super obvious that they really aren't the pillars of enlightenment and justice that we tend to associate them with. The Clone Wars series really had the time to flesh that out, to pull out an example, especially around the episodes that dealt with Anakin's brush with his past of slavery. I mean it's a practice that is banned in the Republic and yet whole planets and cartels are involved in it, meanwhile the Jedi sit in their tall towers and debate pointlessly. It just goes to highlight how the Order's traditions and norms grew to a point where few dared to point out how damaging they were (looking at you Qui-gon Jinn). It makes them MUCH more interesting characters though, in my opinion, and Star Wars is all the better because of it.

I just finished the arc of Obi Wan going under cover. Along with several other arcs, the series is actually doing an exceptionally subtle and well executed show of the Jedi falling apart due to the war. Anger, fear, deception, and aggression are all coming out. For all my griping of the Filoni-ous shark jumps in TCW, this is actually being surprisingly well done.

Interestingly, looking at the Darth Bane trilogy, one could argue that the Sith had betrayed their very nature as well... fascinating.

You are referring to the Brotherhood of Darkness?

[Saso Is-kor]

I just finished the arc of Obi Wan going under cover. Along with several other arcs, the series is actually doing an exceptionally subtle and well executed show of the Jedi falling apart due to the war. Anger, fear, deception, and aggression are all coming out. For all my griping of the Filoni-ous shark jumps in TCW, this is actually being surprisingly well done.

You are referring to the Brotherhood of Darkness?

You mean the Kenobi novel? I've got that in my bookshelf but haven't gotten to it yet, sounds cool. And yeah I was referring to the Brotherhood. It isn't a perfect comparison because Sith tradition was a bit open to interpretation at times, but like I said, just goes to make the franchise better. The quote by Bane reminded me of it:

"Kaan was a traitor. He led the Brotherhood away from the teachings of the ancient Sith. He turned his back on the very essence of the dark side."
―Darth Bane

[Darth Tepes]

I just finished the arc of Obi Wan going under cover. Along with several other arcs, the series is actually doing an exceptionally subtle and well executed show of the Jedi falling apart due to the war. Anger, fear, deception, and aggression are all coming out. For all my griping of the Filoni-ous shark jumps in TCW, this is actually being surprisingly well done.

That Arc was one of the best at also showing Anakin's rage building.  For me, other than Ahsoka, that was the best part of TCW.  Fleshing out Obi-Wan and Anakin's relationship and showing Anakin's descent.

[Darth Logos]

You mean the Kenobi novel? I've got that in my bookshelf but haven't gotten to it yet, sounds cool.

No, the arc in TCW where the Jedi set up an assassin for Obi Wan's murder, and then he takes his place in order to infiltrate a Separatist plot to kidnap the chancellor.

And yeah I was referring to the Brotherhood. It isn't a perfect comparison because Sith tradition was a bit open to interpretation at times, but like I said, just goes to make the franchise better. The quote by Bane reminded me of it:


"Khan was a traitor. He led the Brotherhood away from the teachings of the ancient Sith. He turned his back on the very essence of the dark side."
―Darth Bane

Yes the Brotherhood was basically nothing more than a Dark Jedi Order. They were soft. I loved how he described why they no longer used the title 'Darth'; they were afraid of it.

That Arc was one of the best at also showing Anakin's rage building.  For me, other than Ahsoka, that was the best part of TCW.  Fleshing out Obi-Wan and Anakin's relationship and showing Anakin's descent.

But there have also been some major fails in that. Like OWK never tried to correct Skywalker for outburst dealing with the Zygerians. Although it was not the same level as losing his mother, slavery was one of his major buttons. The highly sensitive, like Yoda, should have had some sort tingle through the Force that Anakin was being bombarded with negative emotions, and Obi Wan was right there.

[Darth Tepes]

No, the arc in TCW where the Jedi set up an assassin for Obi Wan's murder, and then he takes his place in order to infiltrate a Separatist plot to kidnap the chancellor.

Yes the Brotherhood was basically nothing more than a Dark Jedi Order. They were soft. I loved how he described why they no longer used the title 'Darth'; they were afraid of it.
But there have also been some major fails in that. Like OWK never tried to correct Skywalker for outburst dealing with the Zygerians. Although it was not the same level as losing his mother, slavery was one of his major buttons. The highly sensitive, like Yoda, should have had some sort tingle through the Force that Anakin was being bombarded with negative emotions, and Obi Wan was right there.

I can chalk that up to how blind and inexperienced the Order was with emotion.   Been rewatching it myself and realizing that Ahsoka leaving the order robbed Anakin not just of his friend/surrogate daughter..... but of the chance to become a Master.  By the Force Windu pisses me off.

[Darth Logos]

I can chalk that up to how blind and inexperienced the Order was with emotion.   Been rewatching it myself and realizing that Ahsoka leaving the order robbed Anakin not just of his friend/surrogate daughter..... but of the chance to become a Master.  By the Force Windu pisses me off.

Yeah. I too am starting to see past my love for Sam, and starting to hate the character.

[Darth Tepes]

Yeah. I too am starting to see past my love for Sam, and starting to hate the character.

Yea, Sam will always be the BMF......  But Windu just never gave Anakin an inch.  The rest of the council came to accept or at least tolerate Anakin's presence as a Jedi.  Windu...just never let it go.  He always spoke to and about Anakin as if he didn't belong.  You have to wonder...what if Windu had brought Anakin with him to arrest Palpatine instead of effectively sending him to his room or at most sent him to contact Yoda.  Anakin may not have had time to stew in his doubts.

[DarthRegol]

Yea, Sam will always be the BMF......  But Windu just never gave Anakin an inch.  The rest of the council came to accept or at least tolerate Anakin's presence as a Jedi.  Windu...just never let it go.  He always spoke to and about Anakin as if he didn't belong.  You have to wonder...what if Windu had brought Anakin with him to arrest Palpatine instead of effectively sending him to his room or at most sent him to contact Yoda.  Anakin may not have had time to stew in his doubts.

Windu was a jerk, he was very manipulative with anakin and only showed him any respect when he wanted him to kill palpy

[Maestro Jones]

Windu is arrogant, and is some ways he seems jealous of Anakin's power.  He is almost not even Jedi like (or may the epitome of the Jedi downfall).  To paraphrase from another favorite franchise of mine, "It would take only a nudge to make you like a sith, to push you out of the light."  You can see the arrogance in the latest episode of TCW.  It's a very BMF moment, but very arrogant as well.  I never liked the character too much.

[Darth Tepes]

Nice to know I'm not alone in the "Mace Windu was an A**hole" club.   His line to Anakin "If what you have said is true you will have earned my trust....."  This pissed me off so much.  They know Anakin and Palptaine are close, they talked about how they didn't like it.  Then here comes Anakin not just telling them "Hey....Ol' Sheev has been doing some illegal things."  But that he is the Sith Lord they have been seeking for almost 20 years.  But nope...he still doesn't trust Anakin.   For those who have finished TCW...I almost threw something at the TV when Mace spoke his last words to Ahsoka.  Such an ahole.

[Saso Is-kor]

No, the arc in TCW where the Jedi set up an assassin for Obi Wan's murder, and then he takes his place in order to infiltrate a Separatist plot to kidnap the chancellor.

Oh yes, that was some really good stuff.

And more evidence that Mace might very well be the most arrogant Jedi. In AOTC at the Petranaki Arena when Dooku calmly informs him that he's hopelessly outnumbered, Mace's response of "I don't think so" just reeks of arrogance. We kind of brush it off because it's just Samuel L being awesome, but really thinking of the character they were hopelessly outnumbered at first and dozens of Jedi paid the price for it. There's so much in the Prequels that Lucas worked in, it's just subtle.