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Author Topic: LED swapping questions  (Read 3461 times)
Kleeg005
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« on: March 14, 2021, 03:05:40 PM »

Wow, these fora have a lot of information to wade through.  I think I've sort of generally found the answers I seek, but I definitely prefer to have direct confirmation if possible. 

1) I swapped a Pyrestone Orange into what had been a Blazing Red on an Obsidian Lite.  Fresh AAA batteries, and it's still almost totally red.  I suspect this is mostly because even fresh Kirkland (Costco) brand AAA just don't have the juice to push the yellow diode against the red to make it truly orange? 

2) I have a tri-Cree Blazing Red on a li-ion Obsidian v3.  Could I move the PO unit over to that set-up?  I understand that tri-Cree requires more power than standard LED set-ups - would such a swap risk burning out the PO unit?

3) If I can safely use the PO unit on the li-ion set-up, can I use the tri-Cree unit with the AAA Obsidian Lite?  Or would that not have the power to drive the tri-Cree unit?

I suspect I know the answer to these questions, according to my extraordinarily shallow layman's understanding of electronics.  I suspect the answers are: 1) Yup. 2) Don't do it. 3) Nope.  But I'd love to have confirmation from folks with more training than my dilettante self can manage.

Cheers!
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Bane's Heart Manticore with Renegade emitter and basic sound (Mystery Box)
triCree red Dark Apprentice LE v5 with Obsidian v3 soundboard (Mystery Box)
Pyrestone Dark Sentinel v5 with basic sound (Raffle prize)
Violet Amethyst Initiate LE v5 with basic sound (wife's)

firehand10k
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« Reply #1 on: March 14, 2021, 11:08:05 PM »

They are all doable. Are you splicing wires yourself or using quick connects? If using connects the resistors are where needed and you can just go for it. If wiring yourself you should verify the resistors. Buck puck will be fine for any.
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Kleeg005
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« Reply #2 on: March 16, 2021, 10:27:10 PM »

I reckon I might make a trip to a hobby shop and pick up some quick connects.  No buckpucks in any of my sabers, as they were pretty much all grab bags.  In term of resistors, only the Po appears to have a resistor in -line from the battery pack - that one was BR before I swapped it with the PO, so it went from a single LED with resistor to a triple LED with resistor.  It seems to be the same brightness as it was before the swap.  There is no resistor visible anywhere in the tri-Cree set-up, although it's possible there is one concealed by the tape covering the soundboard.  Seems unlikely given what I've heard/seen regarding other sabers.
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Just a simple man trying to make his way through the universe.
Bane's Heart Manticore with Renegade emitter and basic sound (Mystery Box)
triCree red Dark Apprentice LE v5 with Obsidian v3 soundboard (Mystery Box)
Pyrestone Dark Sentinel v5 with basic sound (Raffle prize)
Violet Amethyst Initiate LE v5 with basic sound (wife's)

scifidude79
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« Reply #3 on: March 16, 2021, 11:49:52 PM »

Firstly, Pyrestone Orange is a mix of red and green. With light, when you mix red and green, you get yellow. Or, in the case of these LEDs, sort of a marigold color. There's a resistor on the green to make it weaker, which makes the color more of a red-orange.

Both the AAA setup and Obsidian V3 setup will have resistors, or the Obsidian V3 may have a buck puck. With 6V and 7.4V power sources, you're way over the forward voltage of the LEDs, so you for sure have to have some form of resistors. One thing that's important to do when you do the swap is to keep the resistors with the battery setups they come from. Like Kleeg005 said, US usually puts their resistors on the negative wire. So, when you take the Obsidian V3 pack out, make sure the resistor or buck puck (whichever it has) stays with that setup, and the resistor with the AAA setup stays with that battery pack. Since both LED units have red in them and red always has a lower forward voltage than green, the resistors for one unit will work for the other. Though, a buck puck will automatically drive the LED at the correct voltage, so if you have one of those with the Obsidian V3, it would work with any LED. The wiring on the Obisidian will be slightly different if it has a buck puck. But, as long as you remember which wire drives the positive and negative on the LED, you should be fine.

As for the Tri CREE LED requiring more power, yes and no. Each LED requires the same amount of power, and each LED is driven individually off of the same positive line. So, more juice doesn't flow through the line to make the Tri CREE run. It only requires more power in the sense that running three LEDs will drain your battery faster than running one LED will.

Though, if you're unsure about how to do any of this, I wouldn't recommend doing it without further research. If either of these sabers are under warranty, messing with the wiring will void the warranty.
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firehand10k
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« Reply #4 on: March 17, 2021, 08:49:04 AM »

Though, a buck puck will automatically drive the LED at the correct voltage, so if you have one of those with the Obsidian V3, it would work with any LED. The wiring on the Obisidian will be slightly different if it has a buck puck. But, as long as you remember which wire drives the positive and negative on the LED, you should be fine.

As for the Tri CREE LED requiring more power, yes and no. Each LED requires the same amount of power, and each LED is driven individually off of the same positive line. So, more juice doesn't flow through the line to make the Tri CREE run. It only requires more power in the sense that running three LEDs will drain your battery faster than running one LED will.

Though, if you're unsure about how to do any of this, I wouldn't recommend doing it without further research. If either of these sabers are under warranty, messing with the wiring will void the warranty.

A buck puck is a constant current driver it does not regulate voltage at all but it does control current to a safe level. That is the reason buckpucks are defined in current output. With high output either a 750mA or 1000mA can be used depending on LED brand and color.

A tri-Cree requires either more volts or more current depending which way it is wired. In parallel they will need more current while in series they will need more volts. Three red LEDs with a 2.5v forward voltage in series will require 7.5 volts to light them all but once one goes out it breaks the circuit and they all do. They would run safely off of a US 7.4v battery pack without
A resistor. The same 3 connected in parallel would only need 2.5 volts total to light but would draw 2.25 to 3 amps depending if they are regulated to 750 or 1000mA they could run off of a single lithium ion cell but would still need resistor(s) to ensure safe operation.
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scifidude79
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« Reply #5 on: March 17, 2021, 11:36:42 PM »

A tri-Cree requires either more volts or more current depending which way it is wired. In parallel they will need more current while in series they will need more volts. Three red LEDs with a 2.5v forward voltage in series will require 7.5 volts to light them all but once one goes out it breaks the circuit and they all do. They would run safely off of a US 7.4v battery pack without
A resistor. The same 3 connected in parallel would only need 2.5 volts total to light but would draw 2.25 to 3 amps depending if they are regulated to 750 or 1000mA they could run off of a single lithium ion cell but would still need resistor(s) to ensure safe operation.

I was answering the question in context of what was asked, which is whether or not you can safely swap the LEDs. Ultrasabers wires Tri CREEs in parallel. So, without rewiring the LED, it won't require more volts. And either color can be ran off of the same resistor and buck puck, as long as you keep the correct resistor or puck with the power pack.
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firehand10k
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« Reply #6 on: March 18, 2021, 01:03:49 PM »

I was answering the question in context of what was asked, which is whether or not you can safely swap the LEDs. Ultrasabers wires Tri CREEs in parallel. So, without rewiring the LED, it won't require more volts. And either color can be ran off of the same resistor and buck puck, as long as you keep the correct resistor or puck with the power pack.

Last triCree from them I opened was ring in series parallel with two in series and the third in parallel to both, which is the only way to work all 3 with US battery setup and not lose brightness more. The ones in series split the available current and the ones in series split the available voltage. Puckpucks take 2 volts to operate so starting at 7.4 there is not enough left to operate 3 LEDs. 5.4v can light 2 at a lower current so at most 2 in series. If all 3 are in parallel you are left with each on getting on 333mA this wil light them but at reduced brightness.
If they are running the resistored triCrees in parallel from one resistor they are setting the sabers up for failure as even same bin LEDs draw power unevenly. So while it will work its not a best idea.

But yes if one makes sure to leave the main resistor or buckpuck in the hilt and take any secondary resistors for color mixing with the LEDs they will operate the way US sets them up.
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Kleeg005
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« Reply #7 on: March 18, 2021, 02:24:25 PM »

Grrrr....
I had a long-winded post going, got distracted, and timed out.  Let's see if I can reconstruct my thoughts.

Firstly, my thanks to you fellows for your discussion.  This is something like learning a foreign language.  I'm picking things up from context, and while I am getting the general meaning, specificity continue to elude me.

But my understanding is that multiple LEDs wired in parallel run on the same amount of current as a single LED, and so the resistor from the the original Blazing Red should be sufficient for the PO module.  The same is true for the Violet Amethyst module that I swapped in for a Bane's Heart - all wired in parallel.  I now have three sabers running Obsidian lite boards with 4xAAA packs, and all three have visible resistors in the circuit - although I should note that those resistors are wired in a way such that I cannot read their actual rating. 
Of those three multi-color modules, only the VA has a visible resistor in the wiring of the module (meaning one of the three powered LEDs in that module is receiving reduced current resulting in reduced output of that particular LED relative to the other two in the module).  In the VA, this provides the required color.  The BH, with no visible additional resistance, also provides the expected blade color.  The PO, also without visible additional resistance, provides what appears to be a pure red blade color rather than anything smacking of orange.  All three of these blades have four LEDs contained under a single, central "dome," of which three LEDs are wired into the circuit.  I assume the fourth LED would be for flash-on-clash if these grab bag sabers had been so fortunate as to be equipped.  All three have one visibly red LED, two visibly colored LEDs, and one (unpowered) visibly white LED under the "dome."  So, it seems likely that there is in fact some kind of fault with the PO module that it appears to be completely red?

The tri-Cree saber is Blazing Red running on an Obsidian v3 soundboard with two XTAR 14500 cells.  I cannot see any resistors in the circuit, nor a buck puck (which is a pretty sizable piece of equipment, yes?).  This is all crammed into an Initiate v5 hilt, so there's not a lot of room to hide things.  But there *must* be a resistor somewhere.  If I am understanding correctly, 7.4 volts unresisted produces 7.4 amps of current.  Whereas the data sheet from Luxdrive indicates that any given LED from them works on a "Drive Current: up to 1000 mA."  Which is one amp, right?  So there must be a resistor somewhere to deal with the extra 6.4 amps of current?  It certainly appears that the module is wired completely in parallel, but I could certainly be missing something.  At any rate, I interpret this to mean that I shouldn't make any attempt to change this saber in any way, as something is funky - but if it works, it works!

Like I said, I had a much longer response composed, but I lost it.  I'm sure I'm forgetting something.  Would full pictoral documentation assist in this discussion?  And again, my thanks for the assistance.
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Just a simple man trying to make his way through the universe.
Bane's Heart Manticore with Renegade emitter and basic sound (Mystery Box)
triCree red Dark Apprentice LE v5 with Obsidian v3 soundboard (Mystery Box)
Pyrestone Dark Sentinel v5 with basic sound (Raffle prize)
Violet Amethyst Initiate LE v5 with basic sound (wife's)

DarthProdigal
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« Reply #8 on: March 18, 2021, 02:50:49 PM »

Grrrr....
I had a long-winded post going, got distracted, and timed out.  Let's see if I can reconstruct my thoughts.

Like I said, I had a much longer response composed, but I lost it.  I'm sure I'm forgetting something.  Would full pictoral documentation assist in this discussion?  And again, my thanks for the assistance.

First off, I feel your pain; this used to happen to me regularly... it infuriated or exasperated me to no end. I then realized, even after signing back in, the lost text could be recovered! Simply (and this is after you time out while posting and it takes you to that dumb login of doom) sign in from there. Then right after signing back in hit the back button. It generally says something about resending info or having to refresh page... Do that, hit refresh/reload on browser. This should have taken you back to before you hit submit and kept your unsent post/PM intact! I hope that makes it easier to navigate those tedious timeouts. Oh, and one last bit of info; you can only post once every 30 seconds minimum. So if you log back in and hit post super fast, you'll be stuck waiting in a mini "timeout" again.

But to answer your question, pictures DO tend to help, or are appreciated.
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Dark Lords of the Sith have ruled collectively and individually for Millenia. One afraid to wield a power is ultimately unworthy of it. Ascendancy into the light has an apex, yet descent into the darkness is endless. The Dark Side can give or take anything, based on user strength. I claim the title of Darth Prodigal Dark Lord of the Sith as my own. Through pain, our Code, and right of combat it is mine; and so shall it be defended. Follow Darth Bane's wisdom. (Only Dark Side Points Preferred.)

Kleeg005
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« Reply #9 on: March 18, 2021, 04:13:12 PM »

First off, I feel your pain; this used to happen to me regularly... it infuriated or exasperated me to no end. I then realized, even after signing back in, the lost text could be recovered! Simply (and this is after you time out while posting and it takes you to that dumb login of doom) sign in from there. Then right after signing back in hit the back button. It generally says something about resending info or having to refresh page... Do that, hit refresh/reload on browser. This should have taken you back to before you hit submit and kept your unsent post/PM intact! I hope that makes it easier to navigate those tedious timeouts. Oh, and one last bit of info; you can only post once every 30 seconds minimum. So if you log back in and hit post super fast, you'll be stuck waiting in a mini "timeout" again.

But to answer your question, pictures DO tend to help, or are appreciated.

Thanks for the info!  Point!  Or is it troz?  I can never keep those two straight....
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Just a simple man trying to make his way through the universe.
Bane's Heart Manticore with Renegade emitter and basic sound (Mystery Box)
triCree red Dark Apprentice LE v5 with Obsidian v3 soundboard (Mystery Box)
Pyrestone Dark Sentinel v5 with basic sound (Raffle prize)
Violet Amethyst Initiate LE v5 with basic sound (wife's)

Kleeg005
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« Reply #10 on: March 18, 2021, 05:50:10 PM »

Pictures, to demonstrate my points.
Here is the PO module:


Here is the PO battery pack with resistor as visible as possible:


This is the BH LED, otherwise identical to the PO:


So, no additional resistors on these modules - just the main resistor wired near to the battery pack.  The BH appears to have only two of the four LEDs under the "dome" powered, as opposed to three on the PO.
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Just a simple man trying to make his way through the universe.
Bane's Heart Manticore with Renegade emitter and basic sound (Mystery Box)
triCree red Dark Apprentice LE v5 with Obsidian v3 soundboard (Mystery Box)
Pyrestone Dark Sentinel v5 with basic sound (Raffle prize)
Violet Amethyst Initiate LE v5 with basic sound (wife's)

Kleeg005
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« Reply #11 on: March 18, 2021, 05:55:45 PM »

And here is what I see on the tri-Cree Blazing Red.
The battery pack and soundboard:


Looking down the hilt - I see no resistors:


Looking down the hilt from the opposite end - still no resistors:


The LED module, apparently wired in parallel:
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Just a simple man trying to make his way through the universe.
Bane's Heart Manticore with Renegade emitter and basic sound (Mystery Box)
triCree red Dark Apprentice LE v5 with Obsidian v3 soundboard (Mystery Box)
Pyrestone Dark Sentinel v5 with basic sound (Raffle prize)
Violet Amethyst Initiate LE v5 with basic sound (wife's)

Kleeg005
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« Reply #12 on: March 18, 2021, 06:05:47 PM »

Addendum: I popped a 24" blade onto the PO saber, and it was much more "orangey" than it appears with a 32" or 36" blade.  I think this alone informs my next steps.  Rather than pursuing any kind of further LED swaps, I will probably simply attempt a hilt swap - The Initiate simply doesn't seem a good fit for the tri-Cree, whereas the Sentinel has all the room in the world.  The Initiate has such a short hilt that it is much, much more comfortable (and thematic) with a shorter blade - which coincidentally better supports the PO module.  And the Sentinel has a massive hilt, which requires a commensurately long blade, which doesn't suit the PO.  So.  This exploration has produced results, even if they weren't exactly the results I initially sought.  Thanks again!
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Just a simple man trying to make his way through the universe.
Bane's Heart Manticore with Renegade emitter and basic sound (Mystery Box)
triCree red Dark Apprentice LE v5 with Obsidian v3 soundboard (Mystery Box)
Pyrestone Dark Sentinel v5 with basic sound (Raffle prize)
Violet Amethyst Initiate LE v5 with basic sound (wife's)

firehand10k
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« Reply #13 on: March 18, 2021, 06:38:49 PM »

And here is what I see on the tri-Cree Blazing Red.
The battery pack and soundboard:


Looking down the hilt - I see no resistors:


Looking down the hilt from the opposite end - still no resistors:


The LED module, apparently wired in parallel:


US does use only on resistor on many of their multi diode parallel setups even though it is not a recommended practice. That resistor is one that is capapble of protecting the red. It will therefore protect the blues and greens as well but leave them a little lacking in power sacrificing brightness a little.  on the one with  discinnect the resistor inside the body will protect and US wired LEDyou want to put in it so as long as the resistor stays in place.

On your triRed i only see 4 wires. That indicates the series parallel combination I mentioned before as the series connections are made right on the star.  Ultraabers has fairly recently been using a constant current LED driver that they are still listing as a BuckPuck but is infact just the circuit card instead of the whole enclosed block. It is in the electrical above the souncd card and battery pack. The sqared edges near the top of the tape tell me it is surely in there. Again since you are swapping US to US it will work in the other sabers as it is made to protect the lowest diode. 

In any swaps just keep the big resistor in the hilt and any smaller ones with the LED module. If using a different brand LED resistor fron scratch.

Oh and as a not volts in a battery have nothing to do with how much current in can provide. There are 3.4 cells out now that can provide 15 amps or more safely. If you want to get into more advanced upgrades Ican help then but for now just keep inmind when swapping US to US leave the main resistor/driver in the hilt.
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Have:
Azure Reaper
Crimson Scorpion
Aeon LE  V4 pair
Monarch
Azure Omen
Mantis
Manticore CE
Guardian
Chosen One
Graflex
Menace staff
Sentinel V4 staff
Zweihander
Shark
Bane
Brood Guard

Kleeg005
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« Reply #14 on: March 18, 2021, 08:00:14 PM »

US does use only on resistor on many of their multi diode parallel setups even though it is not a recommended practice. That resistor is one that is capapble of protecting the red. It will therefore protect the blues and greens as well but leave them a little lacking in power sacrificing brightness a little.  on the one with  discinnect the resistor inside the body will protect and US wired LEDyou want to put in it so as long as the resistor stays in place.

On your triRed i only see 4 wires. That indicates the series parallel combination I mentioned before as the series connections are made right on the star.  Ultraabers has fairly recently been using a constant current LED driver that they are still listing as a BuckPuck but is infact just the circuit card instead of the whole enclosed block. It is in the electrical above the souncd card and battery pack. The sqared edges near the top of the tape tell me it is surely in there. Again since you are swapping US to US it will work in the other sabers as it is made to protect the lowest diode. 

In any swaps just keep the big resistor in the hilt and any smaller ones with the LED module. If using a different brand LED resistor fron scratch.

Oh and as a not volts in a battery have nothing to do with how much current in can provide. There are 3.4 cells out now that can provide 15 amps or more safely. If you want to get into more advanced upgrades Ican help then but for now just keep inmind when swapping US to US leave the main resistor/driver in the hilt.

Thanks for the info!  This is as I had hoped. It is good to have confirmation that the required components are in fact there, just hidden, ha ha.  Looking at videos, swapping hilts seems like an overall less technical exercise, but perhaps more finicky just due to the amount components to move around.  I am still tempted to make the full swap, just because.  But doing less work for similar effect is very, very appealing.  Ha ha.
The tri-red does indeed have six wires, split from the two wires from the battery pack.  Somewhat poor camera angle, I'm afraid.  If you zoom in on the third picture, you can juuuuust see them all.  At any rate, it sounds like I don't have to worry overmuch about any of that.  Just get soldering, eh?
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Just a simple man trying to make his way through the universe.
Bane's Heart Manticore with Renegade emitter and basic sound (Mystery Box)
triCree red Dark Apprentice LE v5 with Obsidian v3 soundboard (Mystery Box)
Pyrestone Dark Sentinel v5 with basic sound (Raffle prize)
Violet Amethyst Initiate LE v5 with basic sound (wife's)

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