Injury stories thread

[Nhylus]

Well I tried to be as neutral as possible. In the event of war, of course armor is reasonable. You have 1000s of enemies to worry about sure. however, you're still probably going to die anyway. But something to reflect on as far as Samurai go, in times of peace, such as the Edo period, samurais were not prancing around in their armor. Typically they just wore their Kimono, and the daisho to show that they were of Samurai status. And during that time, many Samurai fought in duels with no protection at all. Simply cause A. Armor takes time to put on and you cant just take it wherever you want, whenever you want. B. That armor is not going to save your life for you. A good swing will take you out, armor or not. Point is, you are not going to convince me to wear armor when I duel with a lightsaber made of polycarbonate that has no edge. You can look down on me if you wish. My personal experience, I do better without bulky armor such as kendo or fencing. I am thin, I have reach, I am fast, and I have good reflexes and I trust them. Armor feels unnatural and restrictive to me. I have gone years holding up just fine without it.  My argument was that there are disadvantages to armor that are appropriate to recognize in its advantages. I just personally would rather rely on my own body first than armor. I do realize there is *some* armor out there that is skin tight and lightweight. But any sort of headgear just distorts my feel for my environment, and maybe to you that seems like a disadvantage.

I could not bring myself to wear a kendo mask and hockey gloves (especially bulky hockey gloves) in a fight with an omni directional blade.
Perhaps paintball gloves with lightweight plating, but I need gloves to be fingerless. And the only possible head protection that may be agreeable is a form of a mesh airsoft mask. Maybe. At least I tried to make a compromise here.

And I realize I am not going to find any friends amongst this sort of debate. But there are plenty of people like myself, who have done just fine without armor. So I will leave it at this and I shall resign from this discussion out of respect.

[Master Lucien Kane]

The issue is not convincing you to wear armor... If you are a consenting adult, you can choose to do whatever you want. The issue is as RM's on the site we must preach safety safety safety It's our job and we aren't insulting your intelligence, or your toughness. As someone who strictly learned without armor or safety gear of any sort, with a lot of different style training weapons. I can vouch for what Nonymous is saying, you can hit harder, and faster if you're wearing gear. As far as not worrying about it because the polycarbonate doesn't have an edge? I've been meaning to show this when I get the chance, and our garage is back up and running, but polycarbonate isn't just plastic... Remember this is the stuff that bullet proof glass is made out of. A thickwalled polycarbonate blade, commonly referred to as the heavy grade, has about the striking force of a bokken. I'll remind you that Miyamoto Musashi, and other trained Samurai, killed other Samurai, who were armed with katanas, with their bokkens.

These "toys" have every bit the chance to turn into lethal weapons, laugh if you want, but I will show a video of their striking potential the second I can.

A baseball bat doesn't have an edge, neither does a tire iron... and yet we don't swing those at each other either unless we're trying to hurt someone.

Once again, we're not going to come to your house and make you put on gear, but understand that we have to preach it, if not for you, for the other 100s of people who are going to read this and say... Yeah I don't need safety gear! and then they get hurt and go that was Ultrasabers' fault. Umm no we warned you posthumously.

This is a contact sport, and requires appropriate gear as such, if you don't use it, you do so at your own risk.

[Master Nero Attoru]

The issue is not convincing you to wear armor... If you are a consenting adult, you can choose to do whatever you want. The issue is as RM's on the site we must preach safety safety safety It's our job and we aren't insulting your intelligence, or your toughness. As someone who strictly learned without armor or safety gear of any sort, with a lot of different style training weapons. I can vouch for what Nonymous is saying, you can hit harder, and faster if you're wearing gear. As far as not worrying about it because the polycarbonate doesn't have an edge? I've been meaning to show this when I get the chance, and our garage is back up and running, but polycarbonate isn't just plastic... Remember this is the stuff that bullet proof glass is made out of. A thickwalled polycarbonate blade, commonly referred to as the heavy grade, has about the striking force of a bokken. I'll remind you that Miyamoto Musashi, and other trained Samurai, killed other Samurai, who were armed with katanas, with their bokkens.

These "toys" have every bit the chance to turn into lethal weapons, laugh if you want, but I will show a video of their striking potential the second I can.

A baseball bat doesn't have an edge, neither does a tire iron... and yet we don't swing those at each other either unless we're trying to hurt someone.

Once again, we're not going to come to your house and make you put on gear, but understand that we have to preach it, if not for you, for the other 100s of people who are going to read this and say... Yeah I don't need safety gear! and then they get hurt and go that was Ultrasabers' fault. Umm no we warned you posthumously.

This is a contact sport, and requires appropriate gear as such, if you don't use it, you do so at your own risk.

Point for you Lucien, and that's why you're a Master   This stuff is fairly serious, and while we can't MAKE you wear protective gear, it would be remiss of us not to recommend it wholeheartedly.  If heavy grade blades can hold up to bokken, then they can do very nasty things to the human body.

I trust my reflexes too, a great deal in fact (having fenced for a decade at least), but I'm still wary when the sabers come out.

[Darth Nonymous]

Well I tried to be as neutral as possible. In the event of war, of course armor is reasonable. You have 1000s of enemies to worry about sure. however, you're still probably going to die anyway. But something to reflect on as far as Samurai go, in times of peace, such as the Edo period, samurais were not prancing around in their armor. Typically they just wore their Kimono, and the daisho to show that they were of Samurai status. And during that time, many Samurai fought in duels with no protection at all. Simply cause A. Armor takes time to put on and you can just take it wherever you want, whenever you want. B. That armor is not going to save your life for you. A good swing will take you out, armor or not.

Another thing about that period about those samurai was they were regarded as "dojo rats" who never knew real bushido. So, take your pick. Practice is to gain strength and skill not decrease it. The fact that you can never actually apply a technique at full speed and power in real time would be worrisome to me. It represents a fairly large gap in training.

Point is, you are not going to convince me to wear armor when I duel with a lightsaber made of polycarbonate that has no edge. You can look down on me if you wish.

It is unfortunate that you are unwilling to entertain these idea because they conflict with your admittedly limited experience, but I post on tis topic for the benefit of everyone. I also find it appropriate to be strict with issues of safety and to promote the safest most realistic training methods.

Please do not think I am looking down on you. I am simply stating the objective facts and my interpretation of those facts. I do point out common myths about these things. The reason I do this is because they are common. Almost everyone at one time or another belives these myths. I did. But the are not backed up by facts, or sound reasoning, they are merely anecdotal.

My personal experience, I do better without bulky armor such as kendo or fencing. I am thin, I have reach, I am fast, and I have good reflexes and I trust them. Armor feels unnatural and restrictive to me. I have gone years holding up just fine without it.

Well, put it this way; I gather you have never been to a live performance where some one has died during it? Most of us haven't. But If that live event is tightrope walking or a motorcycle stunt show, we understand that these are dangerous activities. That's what makes them exciting. We know that practicing free sparring without gear or protective exquipment has the opposite effete on fighting ability. It does not matter if when you do it for real you have nothing.

 My argument was that there are disadvantages to armor that are appropriate to recognize in its advantages. I just personally would rather rely on my own body first than armor. I do realize there is *some* armor out there that is skin tight and lightweight. But any sort of headgear just distorts my feel for my environment, and maybe to you that seems like a disadvantage.

And my argument is that many of those limitations you site are either misconceptions, or common myths. Modern equipment is not restrictive in the least and provide plenty of protection to go full force full speed. Any distortion headgear offers also provides training stimulus, as in an encounter without it, one is more aware than in training. The training  bar must be set higher so that proper speed and power as well as rhythm and timing can be trained for real free encounters.

I could not bring myself to wear a kendo mask and hockey gloves (especially bulky hockey gloves) in a fight with an omni directional blade.

I don't understand the aversion, as I stated earlier. Many gloves for lacrosse and hockey are very low profile and easily be  incorporated into a costume. They are used in SCA extensively. But sparring and training are not the time to be worried about how one looks. None of these gloves or pads restricts motion or technique in any significant way.

And I realize I am not going to find any friends amongst this sort of debate. So I will leave it at this and I shall resign from this discussion.

Again, that is disappointing. Discussion is valued here and differing opinions should be voiced. There are valid arguments to be made, but there are also valid answers to them. Modern solutions and training technology is advanced enough where people can train at what ever level they wish relatively safely. If one wears gears, the possibilities  open way up.

Master Kane is correct to, if this sport is to be taken seriously, these issues must be looked at. He received stitches from getting the hilt throw at him. Now that isn't normal, but it underscores the fact that the blade is not really the most dangerous part of these things.

[Darth Nonymous]

Point for you Lucien, and that's why you're a Master   This stuff is fairly serious, and while we can't MAKE you wear protective gear, it would be remiss of us not to recommend it wholeheartedly.  If heavy grade blades can hold up to bokken, then they can do very nasty things to the human body.

I trust my reflexes too, a great deal in fact (having fenced for a decade at least), but I'm still wary when the sabers come out.

Yes, experts who trust our reflexes know, that it isn't just about us and our reflexes. Risk is there and as a professional I cannot endorse training without gear.

[Master Lucien Kane]

Well and I would move to say that had the blade hit me with the amount of force that hilt did, the damage would have been the same... I really wish I had stuff set up right now... I may try to get that done later this week.  

[Darth Nonymous]

Well and I would move to say that had the blade hit me with the amount of force that hilt did, the damage would have been the same... I really wish I had stuff set up right now... I may try to get that done later this week.  

True, but a lot of people have lots of little do-dads sticking out of their hilts which often get over looked.

[Master Lucien Kane]

I actually opt for hilts that have "dangerous" pommels and flanged emitters... That's because I carry my lightsaber with me everywhere... and what better to disarm someone than a 9" to 1' long hunk of metal that can blind and strike?

[Eiyame]

I totally respect what the Masters are saying here, and if it wasn't just me and my husband we more than likely would wear some gear, but since its just us we don't hit each other as hard as we can, we duel each other at less than 1/2 speed and strength just because we don't want to hurt each other.

The baseball gloves I have are for grip not for armor

And just because you have protective gear on doesn't mean you can't get hurt...

In fencing my one of my two fencing partners, ending up getting around my saber's (sword not lightsaber) guard and hitting me really hard on the thumb, I thought it was broken, thankfully it wasn't. But was was in full gear head to toe with padded fencing gloves on. (Liz who is left handed hasn't hurt me yet, nick who is right like I am (for the moment, I can really use either hand, has given me why more injuries.

Also I ended up giving one guy a massive bruise on his side where I hit him with my saber, and even he had his fencing jacket on.

And I'll be honest when its 90+ outside I don't know about you but I am not wearing my 3 layers of protective gear. I rather take a saber to the face than have heat stroke. (that's just me; don't bite my head off for it)

When I was helping to teaching the new fencers in my second quarter, I to waved the safety book around. Hell even when I take the boat out even with family I wave the safety book around.

[Master Nero Attoru]

I totally respect what the Masters are saying here, and if it wasn't just me and my husband we more than likely would wear some gear, but since its just us we don't hit each other as hard as we can, we duel each other at less than 1/2 speed and strength just because we don't want to hurt each other.

The baseball gloves I have are for grip not for armor

And just because you have protective gear on doesn't mean you can't get hurt...

In fencing my one of my two fencing partners, ending up getting around my saber's (sword not lightsaber) guard and hitting me really hard on the thumb, I thought it was broken, thankfully it wasn't. But was was in full gear head to toe with padded fencing gloves on. (Liz who is left handed hasn't hurt me yet, nick who is right like I am (for the moment, I can really use either hand, has given me why more injuries.

Also I ended up giving one guy a massive bruise on his side where I hit him with my saber, and even he had his fencing jacket on.

And I'll be honest when its 90+ outside I don't know about you but I am not wearing my 3 layers of protective gear. I rather take a saber to the face than have heat stroke. (that's just me; don't bite my head off for it)

When I was helping to teaching the new fencers in my second quarter, I to waved the safety book around. Hell even when I take the boat out even with family I wave the safety book around.

Yeah fencing equipment doesn't always guarantee absolute protection, but it does help.  The mask is arguably the most important part, and is therefore the most protective.  Past that it's just a matter of tear-resistant fabrics like kevlar to avoid stabbing, you're not protected as much against blunt force trauma.  Of course, a fencing blade doesn't have quite the momentum of a bokken or heavy grade blade swung with two hands, so that's another thing to consider.

Padding on the torso is nice, but the two major things I'd recommend are masks (epee masks will work, or kendo if you have it) and some kind of protective gloves.

[Eiyame]

Yeah fencing equipment doesn't always guarantee absolute protection, but it does help.  The mask is arguably the most important part, and is therefore the most protective.  Past that it's just a matter of tear-resistant fabrics like kevlar to avoid stabbing, you're not protected as much against blunt force trauma.  Of course, a fencing blade doesn't have quite the momentum of a bokken or heavy grade blade swung with two hands, so that's another thing to consider.

Padding on the torso is nice, but the two major things I'd recommend are masks (epee masks will work, or kendo if you have it) and some kind of protective gloves.

Would just like to point out that both of us wear glasses so wearing a mask is a royal pain in the ass on top of getting our glasses bent just from the mask it self.

[Darth Nonymous]

I totally respect what the Masters are saying here, and if it wasn't just me and my husband we more than likely would wear some gear, but since its just us we don't hit each other as hard as we can, we duel each other at less than 1/2 speed and strength just because we don't want to hurt each other.

The baseball gloves I have are for grip not for armor

And just because you have protective gear on doesn't mean you can't get hurt...

In fencing my one of my two fencing partners, ending up getting around my saber's (sword not lightsaber) guard and hitting me really hard on the thumb, I thought it was broken, thankfully it wasn't. But was was in full gear head to toe with padded fencing gloves on. (Liz who is left handed hasn't hurt me yet, nick who is right like I am (for the moment, I can really use either hand, has given me why more injuries.

Also I ended up giving one guy a massive bruise on his side where I hit him with my saber, and even he had his fencing jacket on.

And I'll be honest when its 90+ outside I don't know about you but I am not wearing my 3 layers of protective gear. I rather take a saber to the face than have heat stroke. (that's just me; don't bite my head off for it)

When I was helping to teaching the new fencers in my second quarter, I to waved the safety book around. Hell even when I take the boat out even with family I wave the safety book around.

I would never say that it protect from all injury. But if you wear nothing, it protects against nothing. You still have to use control and be careful. No brain no gain.

We become complacent when practicing with people we know and trust. That is the times when we tend to receive our most serious injuries, when we feel comfortable . Wile we don't intend to hit hard, if we trip, don't judge distance right (you say you wear glasses) a /12 speed strike can deliver a full force blow.

This has happened to VorNach and I recently with our new long sword trainers. We were just using sabering gear and did a little free play. we said (AND I QUOTE) "We have enough control to do it safely". VorNach's elbow disagrees. Not serious, but we got complacent with our steel weapons because of the sabers and it bit us. 

There isn't enough experience in the universe to protect you from getting whacked in this game. It should be assumed every blow is going to hit hard enough to injure. Thats why we pad out.

You don't need three layers. Gloves and a masks and gloves should be enough (& cups for the fellas). Fencing masks may be a pain in the ass, but so is glass in your eye or a concussion. Lets not forget burst eardrums, cracked cheekbones and broken teeth. In lieu of a fencing mask, a bike helmet with some athletic safety goggles that fit over your prescription ones and a mouth guard would do fine.

Yes, it is hot. Drink water, take rests. Be smart about it. I would take being hot over getting hit in the face any day.

[Nhylus]

In attempt to respect what the Masters have tried advising me. These are masks I was referring to. http://www.evike.com/product_info.php?manufacturers_id=21&products_id=38653

They are comfort fitted with foam to resist impact. They have room for glasses. And while not totally suited for bbs that can shatter through the mesh, for something like this, it might suit better. And they allow the face to breathe. This particular model of mask covers the ears too.

[Master Lucien Kane]

I've never used those masks... I'd like to get one to test it out.... see how well it holds up to what we do, I've seen them before, and I like the look of them a lot. It would just be nice to see them in action in a controlled setting.

Like I said, we're not knocking you or trying to put you in your place or anything, but we have to do the safety jig for the sake of the children young and old.

I've been dueling without armor for years, one of the coolest things I was able to do was when I did some free style fencing with my friends... we put the helmets on... and for the several hours that we fenced I didn't have to hold back. I could swing at any target and not worry about taking someone's head off.

While the Marine inside me totally agrees with your statement that "pain retains" the practical side of my sparring tells me that if you have armor you can engage more targets and do more techniques in practice safely than you can without. My issue is spending hundreds of dollars on safety gear that's made for another sport. I think our sport needs it's own safety gear... which I am working on. lol Hopefully the prototype suit will be done by the end of the year.

[Pindragon]

I spent 13 years learning Kendo. Eiyame is my wife under my care, her fencing is grand and she wears gear "when fencing" But you cant translate fencing with a heavy saber there meant for slashing and such, but 2 of us in a back yard me showing her a few simple stunt tricks didn't kill me or her we accidentally have hurt each other worse by just being in the kitchen. Lecturing may be part of teaching if they are your student. But accidents happen even with padding i have cracked the Chest protectors of others and had it  done to me and a few concussions. So Ei is in good hands and doesn't need to have a finger wagged at her nor do i. I respect the masters but only if they respect those around them. So respect to you masters. Our little test run is out of the usual generally i use guarded shinai from Mantisswords.  this thread was added in good humor and is being spoiled by a to serious tone. Anyone who purchased there saber is most likely a adult so lets cool the back and fourth and get back to enjoying and joking.