Legal Issues for a Saber Club?

[Bleu32]

So, our current local saber group meets about once/twice a week in a public park once the sun goes down and we duel and generally have a great time for a few hours. The park has lighting all over the place, with darker spots for photos and showing off the sabers, but it's rather safe. Plenty of benches and all that too.

But we only have 5/6ish people at the moment and sometimes only 3/4 can come depending on peoples schedules, etc.

We'd really like to start expanding our group, but considering we're all very close and long time friends where injuring each other isn't something we'd worry about from a legal standpoint, bringing new people into the group is a bit daunting for a few reasons.

The two main issues we're currently worried about..

• Injuries. Do most saber clubs have a standard waiver, or some sort of form that people have to sign to participate?
• Using a Park. The park in question is public, has one gated parking lot and then plenty of sidewalk parking. It's posted hours are 6:00am until 10:00pm each day, we've never stayed past 9:30ish due to this. But there are housing surrounding the park and we can make a decent amount of noise, so we've worried the cops would be called to investigate more than once, though it hasn't happened yet.

Anyone have experience with stuff like this when getting a LED Saber Club up and going?

Thanks!

[Zurth]

The most you can get when dueling is a bruise or two, as far as i know of. So a waiver would be unnecessary, unless one of your members feels the need to do a backflip off the picnic tables then land on his face xD But it would be his fault, also from where I live you cannot call in a noise disturbance unless it is pass 10pm. Just my knowledge on the subject.

[Vrakul]

While I'm no lawyer, I can't imagine there is any problem using a public park for a saber club. It's no more dangerous an activity than football/baseball/skateboarding/etc.

IMO, a waiver would likely be a very good idea if you're going to have an organized club or you'll be holding any kind of events. While bruised knuckles are likely the extent of injuries you're bound to encounter, last night my 8 year old nephew whacked me in the face with my Initiate V2 LE and split my nose open across the bridge. Injuries can happen, and the last thing you want is liability for someone else's lack of control. I imagine there are standard forms available that you could customize for your club. In any case, it would be a wise investment of your time to discuss the matter with a lawyer or other legal professional in your area. Better safe than sorry!

[Master Nero Attoru]

For legality, I'd say err on the side of caution and explore your options with a lawyer or legal consult.  I don't have expertise in this, although I have had similar experience in fencing, and there is PLENTY of red tape there in terms of signing waivers and whatnot.  You want to cover your butt in this case.

For the public park, I say go for it.  If you're not past the posted hours (which I've done and gotten crap for) and you're not making eardrum-shattering noise, what can it hurt?  As Vrakul said, other loud athletic activities are allowed there, so why not LED lightsaber dueling?  If you're really worried about it, consult someone who might know - your local police station for instance.

[derpmeister66]

I was in and part of a few clubs and we never had any issues.  A verbal agreement is all you really need, just be sure everyone acknowledges they're dueling at their own risk(not that there really is any).  Most cities/towns don't care if you stick to yourselves as the park is a public place.  I used to do this on school property back when I was in High School.  If you decide to expand the group outside your local friends I would say some sort of age limit and agreement is made.  If someone part of your group does something illegal/damaging and then blames it on you, you could be held liable.  If you only plan to expand to some more people you are friends with I'm sticking with everyone else and saying you don't need any real agreements beyond verbal. 

[John-Michael]

"An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure."

I STRONGLY recommend well-written waivers, preferably notarized and produced by a qualified legal professional.  The cost of producing such documents is well-worth it, compared to that of litigation and potential criminal prosecution.

Also, do your best to find a private location for your meetings to minimize run-ins with hecklers (which could escalate into physical violence) and incidents where one or more bystanders suffer accidental injuries. 

[Darth Fury]

I am the co-founder and leader of currently the biggest saber group in the kentucky/ohio/west virginia tri-state area.  During our full swing summer months we regularly have 20 vs 20 and even 30 vs 30 games in our local park.  Ill give you my thoughts on this from my experience starting with 5 people and ending up with the 60+ members we have now.

1. Waiver - Excellent idea. When we were just a group of friends, it was not needed. However when you have strangers showing up to play and train, you can't blindly put your faith in people even if they are a part of our wonderful community. Secondly, freak accidents happen. It sucks, but they do.  We had one of our 9 year old members get the bottom half of his incisor teeth chipped off. Wasn't his fault, or really anyone elses.  It was slick out (rained the day before) and during a big group fight he slipped and skidded right as an enemy was pushing forward and they kinda fell into each other. When hilt meets mouth, the metal hilt wins every time.

2. Using the Park - We also play in our local City Park. There will be 2 groups of people that could potentially give you a hard time. The local police officers, and the park employee's.  The single best piece of advice i could give you would be to TALK TO THEM.  When our members started increasing the first thing me and my cofounder did was go to the local park office and sit down and have a talk with them.  We explained who we were, what we were doing, and why we were doing it.  Turns out when they realized we were trying to give kids (and adults) a place to go have fun as opposed to other more troublesome activites they could be doing..... they were more than happy to let us use the park.  Now during the summer time we have extended usage hours. Park closes at 11, but we have permission to stay until 1am ish as long as we dont park our cars inside the gated area they have to lock up.  Secondly, the police. Make friends with them. They can be your greatest asset if you let them.  We also talked to the police as they regularly patrol the park and told them about our meeting with the park officials.  Not only are they supper supportive, but have gotten us out of sticky situations, and the evening/night shift guys regularly take lunch in the park and watch us play. For instance, we had a group of homeless guys hanging around near us, and i did NOT want them near the 20 kids 14 and under i was responsible for. They were drunk and saying inappropriate things, and really causing problems.  I gave the station a call, and 1 minute and 45 seconds later the officers showed up and handled the situation.

It is probably one of the most rewarding things i have ever done in my life. I hope you enjoy your group!  Remember, having fun is always #1 priority

[John-Michael]

2. Using the Park - We also play in our local City Park. There will be 2 groups of people that could potentially give you a hard time. The local police officers, and the park employee's.  The single best piece of advice i could give you would be to TALK TO THEM.  When our members started increasing the first thing me and my cofounder did was go to the local park office and sit down and have a talk with them.  We explained who we were, what we were doing, and why we were doing it.  Turns out when they realized we were trying to give kids (and adults) a place to go have fun as opposed to other more troublesome activites they could be doing..... they were more than happy to let us use the park.  Now during the summer time we have extended usage hours. Park closes at 11, but we have permission to stay until 1am ish as long as we dont park our cars inside the gated area they have to lock up.  Secondly, the police. Make friends with them. They can be your greatest asset if you let them.  We also talked to the police as they regularly patrol the park and told them about our meeting with the park officials.  Not only are they supper supportive, but have gotten us out of sticky situations, and the evening/night shift guys regularly take lunch in the park and watch us play. For instance, we had a group of homeless guys hanging around near us, and i did NOT want them near the 20 kids 14 and under i was responsible for. They were drunk and saying inappropriate things, and really causing problems.  I gave the station a call, and 1 minute and 45 seconds later the officers showed up and handled the situation.

BRILLIANT!

Great advice!

I gave you a Dark Side Point because I figured that's what you would prefer (given your username). Please let me know if I erred so I can rectify my error as soon as possible.

Continued good luck with your group!

[Master Lucien Kane]

Yeah, I carry my lightsaber on my person daily... Police are almost always cool once I explain to them what it is and what it does. Really awesome advice!

[Darth Arthian]

Darth Fury where is your club?

[Darth Nonymous]

I own my own school and my family has owned an athletic facility for most of my life. Do not mess around with this stuff. It is serious and everyone who has ever been bitten by this has said "we have been doing it for ...years and nothing has happened yet.". Protect yourself and your participants.
Nero and Fury are correct.

Get waivers!!!!! Know your local laws and your responsibilities and be safe.

You can loose eyes, get serious soft tissue injuries, puncture wounds, abrasions, sprains, falls, concussions, broken bones, and anything else you can get while actively moving. If one kid gets a broken rib because he tripped over a root while dueling with an instructor, you are in jeopardy of being held responsible.

Every community has slightly different laws on such things. Find out what they are and comply with them.

If you are dueling and have zero experience, I hope you are using protective gear. If not, start. It only takes one accident to kill the entire endeavor. And it will be an accident that does it. Something you didn't plan for. Plan for everything. We have gear videos here that can give you that idea.

[Solinus]

I cannot agree with Master Nonymous more. He is 100% correct. I realize that this thread is old, and some of the names here I do not recognize, but if you do come back and see this thread, please consider seeing the following other threads regarding saber safety:

First is a video put together by Masters Nonymous and VorNach of the Terra Prime Lightsaber Academy:

http://www.saberforum.com/index.php?topic=7983.0

Second is a thread that talks all about saber safety, including gear to use, and other precautions. Lots of great discussions and input from the entire saber community:

http://www.saberforum.com/index.php?topic=7587.0

Good luck with your club! Please come back and let us know how you are all doing. We'd love for you guys to get involved with us and show us pictures, videos, and anything else you'd like to share.

[Ander]

Waivers? You have got to be kidding
All of our members have a) a medical certification that ensures that they are fit for doing sports and b) an insurance covering damage to them and to third parties.
Without those, in Italy, you can't do sports practice in an organized way, and it's a just law IMO.

[Darth Nonymous]

Waivers? You have got to be kidding
All of our members have a) a medical certification that ensures that they are fit for doing sports and b) an insurance covering damage to them and to third parties.
Without those, in Italy, you can't do sports practice in an organized way, and it's a just law IMO.

That's a waiver. and it is the same here. That's why the advice to get them and not just practice informally is given. without them, If someone gets hurt, the elder of the group is held responsible.

[Ander]

I thought that the waiver was just a form saying that you were practicing on your own responsibility and if you got hurt you agreed not to hold the others responsible, or am I mistaken? Possibly the word has a different meaning that I thought. Anyway, the advice is sound: get them to sign a <whatever> and get insurance. It costs little, and potentially saves a lot.