Which style do you most favor?

[Master Rel]

Form I: Shii-Cho
Form II: Makashi
Form III: Soresu
Form IV: Ataru
Form V: Shien/Djem So
Form VI: Niman
Form VII: Juyo / Vaapad

The basic seven...there are many more considerations...after all it is a grand scape of a setting with many cultures and races to consider.

But a recent thread got me thinking on this well traveled subject, in particular my dedication towards Soresu.

The ideal that the evolved version or the recognized advanced style...based upon a few bits from a couple movies and a few lines here and there in various books...the defensive style that best represents what the Jedi stand for in a struggle situation, deal with the aggression until the issue is resolved rather than meet it head on with equal or greater aggression.

I am just a guy, same as any of y'all, I have a vision of what this general ideal of what my favored style represents.

I am of course a supporter of the Jedi cause, as it was intended...representing the light and the good nature of the force, resisting the temptations and influences of the dark side of the evil aspect of the force, and defending against corruption.

This is not another thread to debate the good of the Jedi and the evil of the sith...rather I hope to consider only the light saber techniques that are most attractive to you and if different to your real world LED sabering.

*****

For me, Soresu is still my chosen style in context and in philosophy.

In reality my vision and my practice of the same is quite different than most of what I am seeing out there.

This got me thinking, is there room for vastly different interpretations?

Surely there is, but shouldn't kung fu look like kung fu, even if from different schools of thought and practice...Southern crane style compared to stone throw monkey is vastly different, yet the viewer would most likely say "ah kung fu".

Judo is a grappling style
TKD is a kicking style
Kung Fu is a artistic style
Karate is a hard striking style
etc.

But each of these is more than their simple defining elements...certainly the same is true for the fantasy considerations of light saber styles/techniques.

In our real world when one studies a particular style, such as Shorin-ryu, and reaches an instructors ranking...goes out on their own...and finds that certain elements seem to work better in a slightly different arrangement...changes the foundation style a bit...when taught, this modified version usually gets another extension to the name, such as the branches that extended beyond the original art...

Maybe this is where we are now.

To better represent the variety and application of the base technique and thus style.

Certainly at this moment my Soresu, representing the ideals of the same...trying to keep the flavor of the concept while carrying it over to real world LED sabering...is vastly different then those others I have seen.

At current time I play my Soresu my closer to the vest as a modified Kendo...calm, focus, attention to form, stoic, and then bursts of movement to close the distance, disarm, or dispatch as appropriate.

Letting the other player commit, draw them to over commit, and deal with the situation.

Maybe my application of the same is more akin to one of the other techniques?

Hence the other potential names...50:50 Soresu and Niman for example, called (for example) Eclipsed Moon (representing the yin and yang aspects).

Just saying, maybe it is time to move beyond a single name...develop a structure of combined styles.

[Master Nero Attoru]

Neat idea Relmeob.  If you'd like, just to get a more numerical idea of things, I could add a poll with the different Forms as options.  People could still post here, but we would also see a breakdown of which forms are most popular/utilized here on the forum.

[Master Rel]

Indeed and once completed we could work on some combined forms/names to apply to the popular choices and thus potential combined natures 

[Master Nero Attoru]

Indeed and once completed we could work on some combined forms/names to apply to the popular choices and thus potential combined natures  

Definitely!  I'll add the basics for now, and later on we can elaborate.

Note - I'm adding them each separately, so Forms like VII which have variants (Juyo and Vaapad) will be listed as separate entities.

[Darth Nonymous]

I ,as you might imagine, have a bit of a differnt spin on it.

For me this is how it breaks down, and how the Terra Prime material is going to tend toward:

The seven forms as described do not indicate much of separate styles as they are a means of progression. This is how I have been adapting the concepts.

Shii-Cho: is basics: stances, targets, strikes, parries, and basic combat strategy

Makashi: refinement of engagement with other weapons. distancing, reversals, movement, attack and retreat. control and precision.

Soresu: defensive technique repository. maximizing defensive capability through coverage, footwork, and endurance.

Ataru: agressive technique repository. Maximizing offensive capability through jumping, turning and running.

Shien/Djem So: Changing from aggressive attack and defensive strategy. Learning the dynamics of being able to change techniques at will.

Niman: Balancing the extremes of the previous forms. Loking at the formula abstractly and integrating those ideas into practice.

Juyo: The addition of intent, psychology, visualization, meditative aspects and creativity. Learning to let go and react in combat rather than try to predict or control. Setting the atmosphere and taking the initiative by one's own volition.


Now as one goes through the progression, they will focus on one or the other formula as a concentration. It seems unlikely that any of these forms would be isolated, but if they were, it would be interesting to see the concepts of the others interpreted with a single mindset. Soresu will attract some practioners because of it's philosophy. Some of those people will stick with it, or grow weary of the training and look for more material. Some of those will then later return to their original focus after a 'look around' and gaining more experience.

This got me thinking, is there room for vastly different interpretations?

Surely there is, but shouldn't kung fu look like kung fu, even if from different schools of thought and practice...Southern crane style compared to stone throw monkey is vastly different, yet the viewer would most likely say "ah kung fu".

Judo is a grappling style
TKD is a kicking style
Kung Fu is a artistic style
Karate is a hard striking style

Interesting that you would use kung fu as the example. The term "kung fu" doesn't really even mean martial art. It is an English term to define a group of martial arts that originate in China. SO if that's the level of detail we are talking about , fine. But you analogy starts to have problems with arts like Shuai Jiao, Ziranmen, and Jeet Kune Do. None of which look like wha most people define as "kung fu".

Also, the descriptions you offer are subjective in nature with respect to Kung Fu and Karate. TKD and Judo have rules which constrain the way they are performed incompletion or sparring. It is easy to say Judo=grappling and TKD =kicking.

But, Kung fu and "artistic" style does not give much of a description. If one sees ,say a San Da fight they would be unlikely to say "look they are fighting with kung fu!" as opposed to them seeing a kickboxing match and saying "hey look at them kickboxing". Same with Shuai Jiao and Judo, which are almost identical in technical aspects. I imagine that if you took away the GI and the Jacket and it was two guys going at it, it would be a rare person to be able to tell which one was "Judo" and which was "Shuai Jiao"

You interpretation will be a welcome addition and will add to the landscape, but I worry that we are shuffling a bit close to "this is the REAL style/form" type of thing which plagues the martial art world so much. Everyone's input is valuable. That is the great hint about lightsabering; NONE of it's real. We have carte blanche! There is a freedom here which is unprecedented in the martial arts world.

Who cares if my Djem So doesn't look like General Sun's? Maybe they are so different they don't even look related. Well, they aren't. They are two unique perspectives within a greater landscape. Ideal is subjective and everyone has their own ideal.

We have a saying in Chinese martial art "Nobody cares what the punch looked like when it knocks you out."

[Master Lucien Kane]

I favor a mix of Juyo, Ataru, Makashi, and Soresu.

[Master Rel]

In a LED saber forum with mixed backgrounds, ages, experience levels, and especially interest it should be reasonable to express a term such as TKD to initiate a point of conversation without noting righ off the bat that the actual style in question is hapkido which has elements borrowed to develop the sport of TKD.

Those with more interest in the sideline of the particular real world style, I am one of those, will know to ask if there is more...but the casual form member can continue on with the subject at hand which is light saber techniques.

I do like and appreciate the thought process that 1-7 are stages of training but we should be careful that this does not become color belt chasing with 7 having to be better and a stronger technique than 1 because it is higher on the staircase.

Kung fu is a sloppy title but it is also 100% recognizable for the regular joe or Jane who may go their whole lives without more interest than that there is Kung fu.

Noting Kung fu as artistic was done as an example of surface differences to the average forum member and a compliment to the general grace and style seen with the many many schools of Chinese martial arts known to the world as Kung fu.

It will be interesting to see this thread develop and grow as we all share our interest and knowledge.

[Infantrymyers]

what am i the only Ataru? 

[Master Lucien Kane]

Yeah and my approach on developing the seven forms of lightsaber combat is that they are their own styles of martial arts... but they are unique in that they have built off of each other. Shii Cho was developed before the invention of the lightsaber. Then Makashi was developed for sword to sword combat. Each form has been developed for specific purposes... but no form is the win all beat all form

That is because of the differences between tactics and techniques... which I will be posting a video on soon.

Nothing wrong with the differing opinions... just stating where I am coming from in my research and development.

[Master Nero Attoru]

I do like and appreciate the thought process that 1-7 are stages of training but we should be careful that this does not become color belt chasing with 7 having to be better and a stronger technique than 1 because it is higher on the staircase.

I like Master Nonymous's idea because it's new, and does have some serious merit (Form I is established as the beginner's form, with Form VII being a much more advanced style).  That said, Relmeob has a point - I have always regarded the Forms as a sort of "rock paper scissor" concept.  Yes, each one is an advancement on the previous, but in that advancement they give some key features up.  To give you an example, you move to Makashi and gain the control and dueling concepts which allow for very skilled one on one dueling, but give some ability to engage multiple opponents as well as blaster wielding foes.

Of course, to clarify what I took from Master Nonymous's post, I felt like the advancement had one remain formless, using the Forms as a teaching device rather than a style classification.  In this way it makes a lot of sense!

[Darth Nonymous]

I do not mean to say that these forms are "levels". They are stages of development. Compartments for specific skills and ideas. The first three (maybe four) in our system are required-but only the basic formula. The entirety of the exercises etc. do not have to be learned, just the basics of those core components. So there is no set way or order you need to learn them (Shii-cho is the exception) but simply have a familiarity with the concepts each one teaches. You need all three of the first concept, i believe for good weapons art; defense, striking, maneuvering, and strategizing. Then from there it's all a matter of how you want to refine it.

Kung fu is a sloppy title but it is also 100% recognizable for the regular joe or Jane who may go their whole lives without more interest than that there is Kung fu

I did mention that in my post. My point is we are not speaking at the normal everyday joe level. We are speaking and talking about high concepts of how much should be recognizable in a fight or in usage. If you see a kung fu guy training, MAYBE you will recognize it as chinese. But as every weekend class shows me, people usually call some of what I do Karate, TKD, or whatever martial art they are familiar with.

My example of Shuai Jiao still stands:

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-8r2C5EvEc0" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-8r2C5EvEc0</a>

I think you would be hard pressed to find anyone would categorize that as "kung fu" based on how it looks.

This is also a good example of what we are doing with the Terra Prime System and Shii-cho. Shuai Jiao is the core of all Chinese Martial art, som much that the term is used to mean throwing applications in most schools. For example, in our Taiji (another kung fu style that does not look like kung fu) We have three categories of technique: Shuai (throwing), Chin na (locking), and Daquan (striking). There are those who study only Shuai Jiao and it is an art inane of it's self. It is also incorperpated in to  hundreds of other arts.

As far as cannon goes, if these styles are as old as they claim, they would be literally thousands of variations on a theme. Some of them could look completely different but be based on the same principles.

That is how the real martial arts developed as well. From piece of previous arts. None of it coming from a vacuum.

So there is no set way or order you need to learn them (Shii-cho is the exception) but simply have a familiarity with the concepts each one teaches.

[Master Rel]

Shuai Jiao is a lot of fun to watch, that sort of format for open wrestling always appeals to my favored Judo...good stuff.

I am looking forward the remaining year and see what all comes of the collective efforts   

[MrJediMan]

According to what i've been told, I'm a Djem So'er. I want to get into Staffs and Dual weilding, but my Budget does not allow for that at the moment.

[Solinus]

I voted Shii-Cho, because that is what I am focusing on right now. All of you here are experienced beyond what I can imagine. I'm just learning. I need to build that strong foundation, and Shii-Cho is doing that for me. I later plan to move into Soresu, simply because I've been told (and I have seen it as well), that I tend to wait for the incoming strike and react to it. I'm more of a defensive fighter.

As for combining several types of forms and creating a new name for it, I personally don't like it. I don't like change. Never have. But it will be interesting to see what sorts of names you guys come up with. The creative part is cool.

[Master VorNach]

Of course, to clarify what I took from Master Nonymous's post, I felt like the advancement had one remain formless, using the Forms as a teaching device rather than a style classification.  In this way it makes a lot of sense!

In an attempt to summarize a little bit, lightsaber combat is the whole of the martial art with the 7 Forms being overlapping skill sets that combine to become the art of saber combat. Not all of the 7 Forms are needed to become proficient but there is a set of basic skills which are needed. This is true in any martial art a person studies and which can be seen in the basics of the early Forms.

This does not line up with how some of the canon history is written (with the limited amount of reading I've done) but from my perspective it makes more sense. Each of the Forms as presented is somewhat limited in scope, based on the information that's available to us. When you take them as a collection of skill sets they become more comprehensive as a group.