LED Saber Safety

[Ander]

I know your stance on this, and I knew that you would find fault with what I said; I will just say that our techniques, practices and materials are felt by the Masters to be quite safe for children as well; in fact, younglings fought in the tournament together with the adults (adult combatants are required to avoid contact when attacking younglings, of course) and some (scarily good after a few years of practice) actually won matches. It's not my place to either defend or criticize my Masters' stance on this, I am only an instructor-in-training. Personally, I will buy a pair of serious sports glasses, or a kendo mask, before the next tournament, because using olympic or airsoft masks is a pain.

Regarding the gloves, I use these http://www.mechanix.com/tactical/taa-m-pact-3-glove with some added knuckle protection, and they are quite sufficient for even the strongest blows; I don't like motocross gloves, but some of my students use them. One of them even uses a garment that he typically wears below chain mail gauntlets when doing medieval sword fighting, so to each his own.

Re your last comment, we teach our students not to practice alone, because if you do you can easily learn a technique in a wrong way, and then need double effort (also on the teacher's part) to learn it correctly.

Tonight, last lesson of the current course. We'll start again in September.

[Master Lucien Kane]

As far as gloves are concerned, we all have different pain tolerances. My knuckles can take quite a beating before I'm unable to continue, so my motorcycle gloves take some of the sting off of that polycarbonate blades.

Eyes don't fall under that equation though lol.

That being said, under supervised training, you should be fine, it depends entirely on how hard you guys are training, which I'm guessing isn't hard enough to merit such gear.

I've been on both sides of the safety fence. When I was a Marine, I was with two different units, one of them, we'd go to the shooting range with nothing but our cammies, and a light vest to hold our magazines. No helmet, and eye pro was recommended.

When I was with my second unit... We were fully geared every time we went down range. It was made to be incredibly stupid. Like, you have to have your side sapi plates in stupid.

So there's safe training, and then there's the point at which it becomes overbearing.

With sparring of any type, eye pro is a necessity. For well supervised training, it's a grey area. We've seen what can happen when an instructor turns their eyes for a second.

[Ander]

Well, in your case (shooting) I can see a real reason for wearing protection: with your full gear you are less comfortable, so shooting is (a bit) harder; also, you get used to wearing it. Man, having all that plates on you must be REALLY unconfortable. Sorry if I digressed.

I feel that Nonymous and you both make good points about eye protection being more important than hand protection (even if hand strikes are extremely more common). Tell you what, I'll bring up the issue at the next lesson for instructors (which is monthly and compulsory for all Italian schools: we all go to Milan to learn new techniques and coordinate teachings) and hear what they say.

[Darth Nonymous]

I really don't understand the reluctance to wear full head gear. These are preventable injuries and when you are properly armored the risk drops down to almost nil. This allows for full range of techniques to be used without fear of hurting anyone. Fencing masks do not obstruct the vision at all and provide protection from all kinds of blows. Lacrosse pads and gloves are designed to protect from swinging sticks and the bumps and bruises that occur in sparring. All of this gives you full range of motion in your body to the extent you have normally. There are no drawbacks from what I can see and only benefits.

I also cannot caution strongly enough against the "It hasn't happened yet" philosophy. I can't tell you how many folks I have seen say that right up to the one time it does happen. It often ruins them and what they were working toward irrevocably. All it takes is one person getting one big injury to have people calling for a stop to it all.

[Master VorNach]

I really don't understand the reluctance to wear full head gear. These are preventable injuries and when you are properly armored the risk drops down to almost nil.

It should come as no surprise that Master Nonymous and I are on the same page on this topic. I've posted around the board a number of times about the ease and affordability of fencing masks. If for some reason the price is still a burden at least look at something like these:

http://www.safetyglassesusa.com/lacrosse.html

http://www.homedepot.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?productId=202593558&storeId=10051&langId=-1&catalogId=10053&MERCH=REC-_-product-1-_-202593560-_-202593558-_-N

http://www.homedepot.com/h_d1/N-5yc1v/R-202600680/h_d2/ProductDisplay?catalogId=10053&langId=-1&keyword=Cordova+BULLDOG+Polycarbonate&storeId=10051


Some of the Lacrosse masks could even be worked into a costume.

I also cannot caution strongly enough against the "It hasn't happened yet" philosophy. I can't tell you how many folks I have seen say that right up to the one time it does happen. It often ruins them and what they were working toward irrevocably. All it takes is one person getting one big injury to have people calling for a stop to it all.

The group in the article has been running their camps for about 8 years. Over that span of time they've had in excess of 300 students. This is the first injury of this magnitude in the history of their camps. There is a real concern that this single incident could spell the end of those summer camps for good. It only takes one accident to cause drastic, potentially catastrophic, changes.

In one of the other groups I do sword work with we practice with no weapon contact on your partners body. All techniques finish short of an actual finishing move.  We are working with wooden practice swords and we still require safety glasses/goggles and gloves. For which I am eternally thankful, based on the handful of times a new student misjudged their range or someone slipped or tripped and we all flinched as the sword tip deflected off the safety glasses.

As far as gloves are concerned, we all have different pain tolerances. My knuckles can take quite a beating before I'm unable to continue...

I'm a bit concerned that you know how much of a beating your knuckles can take before you have to stop.
I do not mean to criticize but pain from impact trauma should not be the determining factor in when you are done practicing.

Regarding the gloves, I use these http://www.mechanix.com/tactical/taa-m-pact-3-glove with some added knuckle protection, and they are quite sufficient for even the strongest blows

Decent protection on the knuckles but I don't see anything covering the thumb or the finger tips.
I'd be more concerned about these spots than the major knuckles. A damaged finger knuckle might impair your ability to swing a lightsaber. A damaged thumb will likely prevent you from doing so. The tips of the fingers are especially vulnerable in gloves like those, there's no real protection afforded with that style of glove.

If I sound contentious or argumentative I apologize. I do not mean any of these comments to be accusatory or casting aspersions on someones character. I am driven by the desire for the members of this community to be able to study, learn and practice into their old age, with minimal injury and no impairment beyond the natural effects of time.

Someday all of you Anakin/Luke aged saber practitioners are going be as old as Dooku. Wouldn't it be nice to still be able to play at sabers then as well?

[Master Bluespike74]

I concur with Vornach on every statement.  Some may find it hard to believe but sometimes practicing with all that gear helps you learn discipline and building muscle memory that will cause you to become lightning fast and even you yourself will be going "Whoa!"   

When I lived further east, I trained with some guys at an MMA school.  Most practiced no Gi while 4 of us practiced with Gi's.  When it was time to enter a tournament, we all did well in no Gi competition except me as I was always paired with guys 400+ pounds and I weighted 225 so of course, I was 0-2.  It was in the Gi competition where our better fighters were crap.  Some of these guys were undefeated in no Gi and had zero wins in Gi.  The reason was because they had not built the heat tolerance for those 20 lb coats they make you wear and they were over heating and losing. 

Master David Van Ness then required all of us to train in Gi for a solid year before we were allowed to fight again.  The first tournament we entered, everyone single one of us made it to the quarter finals in our respective weight classes.  The reason is because we had trained smarter and were better able to handle the heat than the other schools that were not requiring training with Gi. 

You will certainly be surprised at how much better you will become with a lightsaber when you train with gear.  Of course you are going to look goofy but you will be safe and you will be more willing to push yourself and get stronger and faster as a result.  When the time comes for the armor to get thrown off, you will be surprised at how much more impressive you will look to your friends and communities when you do.

[Master VorNach]

Of course you are going to look goofy

Who's goofy looking?   

Rather intimidating if you ask me (and wait until you face him in person)

[Master Bluespike74]

I would love to face him in person.  Serious looking yes.  Intimidating, not so much.  Now if he was a process server giving me PAT papers, oh yeah, I would be freaked out!  Have a great night.

[Big Andy]

Honestly I just skimmed through this thread and some one herein mentioned putting the foam noodles over the blades which I think is a great idea. I myself have never thought about true safety while sparring and have paid the price over, and over, and over again. Be it cracked knuckles or welt on my arms, legs, back, head etc. Or be it cuts from claws on my hands, in fact one time I sliced open the palm of left hand while trying a new spin with a saber that had a war glaive claw attached to it, now I'm gonna tell ya that hurt. Anyway to get to my point , this thread is a great idea and I seriously hope people will read through it and take the suggestions herein seriously, I know I will from now on. 

[Master Lucien Kane]

It would be nice to meet everyone from the forums and have sparring matches.

[Ander]

Decent protection on the knuckles but I don't see anything covering the thumb or the finger tips.

Protection, like armor, is always a compromise. In this case, the compromise is with dexterity. Many of the techniques we teach cannot be done with heavy gloves, so most of the practicioners wear airsoft gloves or light motorcycle gloves. With midgrade blades it's OK in my opinion, though I wish the thumb were better protected, as you correctly pointed out. Finger tips, on the other hand, due to the way we handle the blade, are not a target. Me, I add volleyball finger protections to the index and middle finger, and I feel I have a good compromise.

Regarding the Lacrosse masks which somebody else mentioned, they are a very good idea which I researched extensively a couple of months ago, however you forget that there is no Lacrosse here in Europe, and it's extremely expensive to import them. And, many masks have holes that are larger than the blade tip, making them not completely safe. But if you have a model that satisfies this requirement, and is sold anywhere in Europe, please point it out to me.

This, for example (it's a women's mask, but who cares, it's black and grey anyway) COULD possibly be OK, and can be imported at a reasonable price, but I wonder whether the gap between the horizontal bars is more or less than one inch. I have asked the seller, we'll see what he tells me.

http://www.ebay.it/itm/Debeer-Vitsa-SI-field-lacrosse-womens-eye-goggles-silicone-protection-Gait-/140748068200?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item20c53d1568#ht_764wt_905

[Veldryne]

Ander my gloves are pretty much the same as yours, cept mine are the oakly version, little bit better controll surface on the palm and fingertips because they are my shooting gloves though. Still that carbon fiber knuckle protection is nice.

[Master Bluespike74]

It would be nice to meet everyone from the forums and have sparring matches.

I agree with this statement. 

[Ander]

Ander my gloves are pretty much the same as yours, cept mine are the oakly version, little bit better controll surface on the palm and fingertips because they are my shooting gloves though. Still that carbon fiber knuckle protection is nice.

I was aware of the Oakley ones, only I was able to find mine somewhat cheaper. When mine eventually break up, I will try the Oakley.

[Veldryne]

pretty comfortable, im in the process of removing some of the padding from the palm for a better grip