Saber Forum

Greetings! VorNach and I have finished a rousing evening of dueling with the saber staff and with two sabers. Tons of fun for sure and some interesting results.

1. Contrary to what I have seen, aggressive strategy with the saber staff and /or two sabers is actually far less effective than one would be led to believe. In fact, as we switched back and forth, duel vs staff, single vs staff primarily, It was when one of us entreated the other one to over extend that we could score a hit. The result was that as we figured out the weapons, we became less aggressive, more thought flu. It was clear one must think five or six moves ahead to be able to set up a suitable trap for the other. (keep in mind that both of us have a considerable amount of experience and therefore are less likely to fall for common traps)

2. The saber "staff" is a tragic misnomer. Fighting with it, almost no staff techniques were really that applicable because one cannot grab the ends. It was a very unique experience and both of us had to have some time to learn it's uses. By the end, we had some pretty impressive exchanges and ti turned out to be a LOT of fun. Far more a game than the straight longsword type thing were usually do. I found myself drawing on Musashi (the Japanese Writer, not Makashi)far more than anyone else.

3. Duel wielding is a very good way to even the odds but ti also come with a cost. Even though against one saber there is a definite advantage by having two blades, it isn't hopeless. The same with the saber staff. But the marks of contact to be favored are the cho mai cho sun, and sun djem.

Pictures to come!

Pics o'plenty!
(http://i.imgur.com/qLruH.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/0qoK6.jpg)

Sun Djem
(http://i.imgur.com/B3cb5.jpg)

Cho Sun
(http://i.imgur.com/JQLZo.jpg)

(http://i.imgur.com/d95bul.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/681G8l.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/jJxJjl.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/o5CC2l.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/1Ftzal.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/I9yWZl.jpg)

Another good session of training....
(http://i.imgur.com/DUpwSl.jpg)

To make sure that I am understanding the master correctly, dual sabers and double blade sabers should only be used by those with a great deal of experience and those of us with lesser experience need to stick to single blades?  Also, thanks for giving the information about the double blade not really behaving as a staff does.  I was wondering that.  Nice to have some clarification. 

I'm not sure it would be divided along those lines. It's more of a strategic mind set. I done simply comes in with aggressive attack they are left open in several places. Better to hang back and let the other guy come in.

Obviously, folks with more skill will be more likely to do better, but it's not a prerequisite. there are definite challenges to duel wielding and double bladed saber in free sparring. not the least of which is the distraction of having two weapons in one hands. Often folks start to panic and forget they even have two weapons.

But yes, not a whole lot like staff.

The reason I asked is that the only Martial Arts weapons I currently have training is Nunchakus and Bo.  My Bo instruction was not the best in the world but in my current system, I am set to receive Bo instruction when I receive my Black Belt in the Spring.  Once I acheived 1st Dan, I was thinking about purchasing a Saber Staff but now I am thinking that I'll hang back on that for the time being and get another saber for myself and one for my wife. 

First, good luck (and impending congratulations) on that 1st Dan.
Second, as Nonymous said, staff techniques are very limited with the saber "staff". I actually got more out of the process by thinking of it as a two handed sword with a really long butt-spike.
The advantage of having 2 striking surfaces were pretty amazing, as long as you let your opponent commit to an action. There's so little time to react to that second blade as it comes around after your initial attack has been displaced.


Excellent, always make sure your spouse is also on board with your plans.


As with many skills you can start "in the middle" so to speak; it's certainly possible to learn how to juggle by starting with 5 balls but it will probably take longer to become proficient than if you start with 3. Using a 2 handed weapon to begin with isn't necessarily more difficult than starting with a single handed weapon. In this case treating it like a staff is not the best approach. It's a different kind of weapon than most of us (myself included) have worked with and needs a different tactical perspective to apply it effectively.

One does not get from "lesser" to "greater" experience by not practicing. How you practice is entirely in your own hands.

"Now all we need is a theme song!"

[quote author=VorNach link=topic=7505.msg102509#msg102509 date=134043761hat One does not get from "lesser" to "greater" experience by not practicing. How you practice is entirely in your own hands.
[/quote]

That is very true.  I am pretty sure I word that poorly.  What I was going for was what I tell young men that brag about how big their guns are and my response is usually something like "Why do you need a .44 when a .22 will do the same thing?"  I was wanting to state that I probably need to stick with a single saber until I get more proficient with it rather than try to get proficient at the same time with a single, a double, and a double blade. 

Thanks for all the valuable information and the early congrats.

I really enjoyed the pictures. They look great

For what it's worth, I agree with you. this stuff is better if you have a it of experience so you can wrap your head around it. And yes, younger guys are going to fall prey to the "bigger, badder, tougher trap far more than older guys or any woman.

Great photos, looks like you guys had a lot of fun.

Great job on the research. Points for both of you!

So with the double-bladed saber, which forms do you think would be the best fit? I'd really like to see some video of it in a dueling situation, I'm curious how fluid it can be.

As someone with no training what so ever, and who just spars with friends I would love to see how bad my forms and reactions actually are. The pictures were great. I am assuming you use heavy grade blades for sparring which is why you wear the protection?

We ALWAYS wear protective gear when we spar. Those are heavy grade, but there is little difference in getting hit with either.

Head gear and gloves are bare minimum for us. We cannot stress that enough.

My bit on staff and dual wielding. Knowing the weakness of your weapon is key; Staff is not better than single dual is not better than staff.

Try not to fall into what I like to call the "rock paper scissors" misconception with Lightsaber variants.... or weapon variants for that matter.

The effectiveness of a weapon lies in the effectiveness of the wielder. I.E. the more you practice with a weapon no matter how unorthodox it is the better you will get at utilizing that weapon.

Master Nonymous, I have been training in Bo staff since I was 15 ish. I agree that the techniques don't directly translate well. However with a little bit of modification (This takes about a week or so of figuring out) You can translate the bulk of your techniques into saber staff techniques...

The obvious points

Don't let the blades touch you...
many bo staff disciplines teach you to allow the staff to touch your body, and to use your body as a fulcrum to change the bo's direction. Obviously with a saber staff, you can't exactly do this. So modify the techniques so that you're changing direction without touching your body... I use my arms and the hilt to change direction.

Don't shift your grip off of the hilt
Once again, obvious, but don't do it... find the length of your hilt, get used to it, and shift your grip within that area... This is why I love the Ultrasabers phantasm.... it's a two foot hilt, and it works perfectly for all the techniques I do with a saber staff. 

I am aware of how to translate these techniques, but fighting with the double ended saber has little in common with fighting with the staff. One entire range of motion is completely impossible because of the second blade. The position of the second blade makes it impossible to follow through enough to make certain techniques effective. your horizontal range is compromise greatly and so many techniques with the staff (of this length) depend on that ROM.

If however, you view the weapon as a double bladed sword (the chinese analog is called a "cicada wing blade") the limitation in the weapon give way to opportunities.

We are the last people to get into the rock paper scissors view, and of course it is the wielder, this all goes without saying. What we have tried to do is put two rather equally match swordsmen with equal amounts of experience with each type to explore the raw mechanics of these weapons, not to box them or place them in any area of value.This is data, our experience exploring gathering that data. But we have both fought extensively with the one staff and can safely say this was nothing similar.

Definitely, and your breakdown of the weapons was extensive and well thought out. I've had some extensive dueling sessions with, and against saber staffs, and with, and against dual wielding.

They all offer advantages and disadvantages, you and Vor Nach are well aware of them, and seem to be overcoming them. Especially with your Chinese martial arts background I would expect no less. The Chinese came up with some sick weapons, and employed them masterfully.

Anyways, I love that this discussion has finally been posted, if I ever get back into my groove (going to Texas has really thrown my schedule off) I'll get some videos posted.

I also agree that one of the big advantages of the saberstaff is it's imposing nature. Once an opponent overcomes that, it can really turn the tables.... Watch TPM, when Obi Wan finally get's over the whole double blade thing... (took his master dying for that one to happen) He was able to counter it quite skillfully. Granted some would say that from a cannon point of view that was due to his anger. I like to think he just wasn't scared of the weapon anymore.

Indeed Master Kane,

I will have to agree that the saber staff's (or 2x ended saber) biggest advantage is intimidation. Not only is it hard to parry each of those strikes coming in successively, but the weapon looks longer than it is.  Since it protrudes from both ends, the effect is that it is a good half meter longer than it is. That causes a ton of distancing opportunities, rhythm sets, and feints.

I would say that if you even hope to fight against it, that is the first obstacle.

This was part of our discussion on the function and practicality of the weapon. After what we found I think calling it a saber*staff* is not an accurate description of the weapon and it's functional use. The limitation on changing your grip really negates a vast section of staff fighting principles and techniques which require grip changing in order to apply them.
I made a light hearted reference to treating it more like a 2 handed sword with a reallylong butt-spike. This was less of a joke than it may have come off as sounding like. While it is certainly possible to adapt staff techniques to this weapon I don't know if it's the most productive way to interpret it's use.


This was another conversation point we had. I realized that despite there not being any significant range advantage over the single saber I was using I was still holding to a further range and spending more time moving out of range than it normally my approach. Once I realized that it stated to become easier to close the gap and (try to) take advantage of the weak points of the weapon.

It was a fun and interesting experiment to run through.

I don't think we came away with any useable video from that afternoon, hopefully another day.

In terms of fluidity my experience was that it's not really different than a single blade. The actual bouts tended to be much shorter than single on single, simply because the followup strikes from the staff are so fast. With a single blade your counter attack or riposte requires your blade to come all the way back around. Using the double-blade has the 2nd blade coming into position for your followup strike at almost the same time that you've negated the attack.

I'd be interested to see 2 people using saber-staves against each other....

Master Nonymous,

would I be able to become proficient with a Saber Staff or duel wielding without any prior experience or learning single bladed combat first?  If so would you be able to teach me?

My personal opinion is to learn a single bladed saber first. That being said, i don't think it is impossible. But it would be tons easier if you knew what you were doing with one blade.

If you can get here, or figure out some way to get together, i would be happy to help you get some of this stuff down.

This right here is why I love this forum.

Here is a demo of the cicada wing blade. (the sun and moon blade is similar with more pronounced curved blades. they re often confused).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TXgjjRjQpTI# (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TXgjjRjQpTI#)

well where at in Ann Arbor do you teach because I only live about 30 minutes away in Canton and I'm sure we could find some place to meet I'll just have to talk with my mom before we make anything definite

In my experience, most martial arts do instruct in the use of the staff (bo or jo) before teaching a sword technique.  However, for the use of choreography, this is not truly necessary.  Choreography is supposed to appear to be combat, but does not include the randomness that combat often breeds.

With that said, using a staff technique for a saberstaff is as difficult as using a pistol-firing technique for firing a shotgun.  As was pointed out before, most staff techniques involve holding the ends of the staff, bracing the ends of the staff across the body, and blocking with the center of the staff.

It is not impossible, though.  One of my good friends is actually modifying a TKD staff technique using only the middle of the staff.  Alternatively, a saberpike can use a staff technique, but would be more appropriate with a naginata-form.

In all, it is a good idea to learn a single saber first before moving on to others.  This is mostly to get the basics of movement down.  But that’s just my opinion.

" ....using a staff technique for a saberstaff is as difficult as using a pistol-firing technique for firing a shotgun."

I could not have put it better. Point for you.

We usually meet on Friday late afternoons / early evenings, but don't let that limit your planning. Nonymous has a somewhat more flexible schedule than I do so if the two of you find a time go for it.

Years ago I achieved a rank of 3rd degree brown belt with testing scheduled for my black belt in Tae-Kwon-Do.  Due to my sensi being arrested for battery charges against his pregnant wife, I never tested and became very disillusioned over it all due to having put this man up on a petastool.  I had however been training with his partner at the dojo in the bo and he was confident that once I recieved my black belt I could easily attain proficiency ranking with the bo.  Unfortnately, I walked away from everything at that time.  So when I had gotten into custom sabers I was pretty pumped about getting a staff saber.  Ordered it last week and it came today, but in the meantime been watching alot of internet video of some impressive handlers.  I was watching Ray Park doing some spinning and this very point above that Mastor Nonymous said hit me.  Most of the stuff that I mess around doing with broom sticks and the like wouldn't work in saber dueling because the base is very limited.  Even the most basic sweep requires a positioning of the hands that you really cant do if you are holding to the blades being a lightsaber blade.  But man, its still fun to whip around!!! 

I completely agree with this.  The single weapon concept is the easiest to approach, and therefore one of the best places to start.  Since it is quite a bit easier for a beginner, it allows one to obtain a stronger foundation in the basics, which is essential for more advanced concepts like dual wielding.  After all, dual wielding is essentially using two singular weapons in tandem... I would think starting with that would be like running before you walk.

A point for your enthusiasm and your name.
Welcome to US.

One of the costumes I am hoping to complete for Celebration VI is a Savage Opress.  So, while I am building my double-bladed saber, I am also going through all four episodes of TCW that he is in and watching his style.  Well, it's not really a style, per se.

Fighting Ventress in hand to hand in the first episode, he is using Savate.  That appears to vanish the moment he gets pumped up on the Nightsister Steroids.  His axe technique is more European footman than martial artist.  Using it as a club with a blade to bash through rather than finesse in any form.  Then we get into his lightsaber technique...

There is none.  He uses the lightsaber like a green belt uses a bo to show off to his friends.  He forces it through, pushes his parries, and generally tries to overwhelm using his sheer strength.  Needless to say, it is a very sloppy form, but works with his 'roid rage.

His spinning is what caught my eye, though.  Most especially in S03E14 (Witches of the Mist).  Toward the end of the episode, he is in the middle of a group of battle droids and is spinning his saber to deflect their blaster fire.  He more flips it between his hands (lifting his left hand while lowering his right and vise versa).

Though, he is also seen doing the rudimentary spins that are shown on this very board.  However, he is seem to do it only once, so it might have been an accident.  Besides that, he uses it more like a battering ram in combat.

For other spinning techniques, besides Ray Park, look up the season 4 episodes with Pong Krell and the SWTOR Cinematic Trailers Hope and Return (With Satele Shan).  Those have some good clear graphics of saber spinning in context to the Star Wars Universe.

Resurrecting a old thread, I just wanted to post a thank you to Master Nonymous for that video on the wing blade. I am going to get that to our teammate with the saber staff.

Points!!

I actually really like that they did that though, it demonstrates in a physical way what a brute he is.  He lacks the technique of Maul, and compensates with pure, overwhelming strength and ferocity.  One of those cases where the animators got the characterization down perfectly.

This thread is fantastic!! This thoroughly answered a few questions I had lingering in my mind since TPM's theatrical release, about double-bladed lightsabers. Major points!!

Experience, creativity, instinct and control are what I think determine the outcome of a duel regardless of the weapons being utilized. Plus a pinch of psychological warfare can tip the scale of any duel in one's favor (Dun Möch). ;3

If there's one thing I've learned in the past four years, it is to never underestimate anyone EVER!!

A question for one of the resident Masters:

Since the double-bladed/dual-wielded sabers give the wielder... well... an extra blade, and there seems to be a good technique for saberstaff spinning): does that suit them (the staff in particular) for the "circle of protection" Master Nonymous talks about in his Soresu videos? In other words, do saberstaffs have advantages over single blades in defensive combat, Soresu in particular?

Yes, that was one of our questions too.

It depends on how you are interpreting Soresu. As I used the 2x blade I found the most effective strategy was to hold back a bit and let the opponent come in. As I have stated before, I am of the opinion that this weapon is best in mid to short range. So a "defensive" strategy than what most people would think it called for.

However, the extra blade actually reduces your range of motion with the weapon. It can be difficult to move enough to pull the second blade around with hitting yourself. Blaster deflection suck with this weapon, the hilt being as long as it is, and the fact that second blade stop you from going low or getting enough movement to defect.

I would say the weapon can give a defensive advantage, but you must know the weapon very, very well.
This is the essence of martial art. You have discovered the secret that enables one to reach high levels in these rings. Point to you.

I'll go ahead and second everyone else in their appreciation for this thread!  It answered a great many questions I had about staffs/dual wielding.  In particular I was curious about their use as a part of Soresu (particularly dual wielding).  Excellent info here. 

That said, as someone who's been training with firearms most of my life, some of the comparisons here don't really work as intended, I think.  The pistol/shotgun analogy works, but comparing caliber without comparing the person wielding it is, unfortunately, ineffective.  Essentially, a small caliber wielded by an expert can be (but is not always) equally or more effective than a larger caliber wielded by a novice.  This translates well to what all the Masters are saying about the difference between a novice and expert wielding the same weapon.

One other thing I wanted to point out with the staff is that it's literally impossible for us to truly train with it as a Jedi would, for the simple fact that a Jedi would have the option to strategically turn off one blade mid-fight.  Exar Kun was well known for using this tactic. 

Overall, I'm thrilled to see this kind of discussion out there.  And the cicada wing blade video was extremely informative.   

Who knows, though. Maybe Ultrasabers will release a Quick Disconnect option for the blade as well as the LED  ;D
Yes, that video certainly was. Not as long as the double-bladed sabers here, but he was very fluid and controlled.

I love dual wielding and ordered my ultrasabers with the shorter (youngling) length blades just for that purpose.  One thing I was taught is to practice single hand wielding with my off hand.  So since I'm a righty I make a point of holding my saber with just my left hand when drilling strikes and blocks. It's  a strange sensation at first but you get used to it.

I tried the same thing... I feel REALLY awkward with a saber in my left hand. I want to order the Pantasm Initiate to see how it feels. The staff is 18", which makes each hilt 9" long. That's about 3" shorter (on average) than regular length hilts. That may be perfect for me!

They'll all feel awkward while you're getting used to using your off hand. That feeling will usually last until it does not feel awkward any more.  ;D
Practice, practice, practice.

"It's the difficulty that makes it worthwhile.
If it was easy, everyone would do it."

I'll be ordering the Pantasm Initiate next week, possibly on Monday, barring any unexpected financial difficulties. I really want shorter hilts. Hopefully this will help.

Once again, your advice and guidance is most helpful Master VorNach!

Let me know what you think of the Phantasm. I'm considering that for a purchase in the next several weeks.



Ah, but not my snarky comments.  ;D
You do yourself proud Solinus. Most people do not have the dedication to train as often or as hard as you do without anyone else physically present to work with them.

I thought I'd post this here instead of somewhere else,

Kendo vs. Escrima
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JapMGyUbT68# (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JapMGyUbT68#)

I kept trying to convince my cousin to spar me like this but I think he is afrraid of me.  :)

This looks like a lot of fun with sticks & a shinai but if someone ever came after me with a samurai sword and all I had we're two machetes I'd probably run away fast as I could.

It is almost universally recognized that running is the better solution to fighting when the option is available.  Even if you have a firearm and he's coming at you with a sword, you're generally better off avoiding the confrontation in the first place.   That said, if you have someone you must protect (family, etc.) that changes the whole ball game.