Reverse Grip - Pro's and Con's

[Bluesky]

Hi there from Australia!

Excellent points Master VorNach; Reverse Grip was only referenced as specific techniques for specific movements. Much has been a reconstruction process across Europe over the last 40 years because much is lost.

What I mean by the exercise of taking these movements in the video and converting them to RG was to show the distinct differences and parallels between FG and RG.

When you hold RG in the Roof Guard what are its strengths and weaknesses?

I was encouraging exploration and experimentation and that is what you find all across the world in many schools with all styles; including RG. I think RG as I spoke about earlier does cross the threshold from Techniques into a Style. I was not being false with my references; literally much is a matter of conjecture, fragments and sentences but I am confident with a full review of the modern histories that you will agree they were fully versed in all aspects of the sword and therefore had to have used reverse grip much like we do.

As for its use; Medieval sword styles used the blade in every way possible and I am of the opinion they used RG as much as in the Eest out of their core guard positions. There is much that is reconstructed from fragments that still remain and know from experience RG often appears in schools across Europe in the middle of a match. Obviously RG is a complimentary set of skills and techniques that marry nicely any FG play.

RG use of the Guards is critical to its success because it needs positional as well as tactical advantages to hold its own.

Thank you for your wonderful videos Master VorNach; and thank you for your comments. You correctly saw that the references are fragments but still it shows the mindset of the old masters did not limit themselves to only Forward Grip. I hope that others here add their knowledge about RG as well so that its theory does grow.

As for armor I see it as a important safety principle and I'm glad to see it; I especially loved that black chest plate you were sporting!

Kind Regards
Bluesky

[eerockk]

Safety gear is vital for everyone involved. Fear of failure means you are not practicing your techniques as effectively as you otherwise might. You are also putting your training partners unnecessarily at risk.
Fighting in armor does not mean there is no fear of failure, but a reduced fear that you will get injured by an accident.

I'd like to give a student's perspective of this.

How many times, VorNach, did you tell me to hit you before I learned how hard one could hit? I couldn't bring myself to do it the first three or four times. I had to unlearn a few things in order to pass that test; disable a few internal safety protocols. That wasn't easy! After the lesson, I was no longer 'afraid of making a mistake and hurting someone', it was go for his f'n soul! (I failed to capture any souls that day...). You can imagine that internal safety programming in my head is intense when my main saber use consists of defending myself against the attacks of a 4 year old. (MG initiate blades kill when they strike unguarded fingers swung by a 4 year old, for example). Before I tried fighting with gear on, I thought it was a novelty. I am now ashamed for ever having thought that. It gives new meaning to the school of hard knocks.  

The gear isn't heavy nor cumbersome either! There was restricted movement over unarmored combat, sure, but it's not like I would have sank like a stone if I had fallen into a pool. A little gear in the right places goes a long way, and as you suggested, it isn't that much on Amazon or Ebay, and the used sporting good stores I know of are even easier to access and probably comparable to those sites as a starting point. I don't know how else to describe it, but fighting with gear makes this hobby something completely different, and that's in a good way. It's like this fantasy and love of Star Wars I've had for 30 years just became real. But it was true fighting, and it made me uneasy at first - intensity overload got the better of me a few times. Eventually, I forgot about the gear and started remembering your teachings. I still got my posterior handed to me, but all the same, I'm not going back to unarmored combat knowing this is possible. Makes the most intense video gaming I've ever done seem boring. I was sweating after the duel from the workout.

Of course it might have been the cold sweat of knowing that my master knew that I knew what he had in store for me, and that I was probably not going to be able to stop it.  

If anything, the worst part about getting clocked hard in the head is how loud it is. It even makes a kind of *CHA* sound upon impact - sai-cha is aptly named. It doesn't hurt though. Gear does cost money, but not much, so that's going to keep even me from going out and buying everything at once, but I'll get everything eventually. The only valid arguments against buying gear is the cost, but consider how much it would cost to repair a few broken teeth, or worse? shell happens; it won't with gear. (It actually says that on the iconic bumper sticker that I quoted there - it's just really small).

Based on my recent experiences, I say that nobody who duels with LED lightsabers should resist using gear until they've at least tried it. Watch how all your training and forms digress to a basic and intense struggle for survival (maybe at first). We weren't keeping score during the duels, but let's just say I didn't have to. On the other hand, if my experiences had been an RPG, I'd have gone from level 3 to level 8 during my brief visit with what I learned.

Gear is way more than just safety.

[Bluesky]

The Budo of the Jedi

Hi there from Australia.

Thank you Master VorNach for your question about Historic Western Sword Theory/Practice as it applies to the modern lightsaber. I decided to separate it from my last post for ease of reading. Setting aside RG for a moment, though this has merits for it as well.

The light saber is a superior weapon; it is the pinnacle of the sword and the Jedi are the elite samurai.

The Budo of the Jedi is reflected in their weapon:

1/ The Light Side
2/ Knowledge
3/ Focus
4/ Defense
5/ The Jedi Code

The western approach was also one of honor and chivalry sadly lacking today with many schools ignoring discipline and respect at all times for the attitude of lets just have fun and whack each other! (This is just the personal opinion of a cranky old guy ) I like seeing young people saluting/bowing, showing focus and respect for their equipment, dress, teachers and the art they are learning. "The Jedi has a most serious mind!"

To answer your question Master the brutal efficiency of the Western approach is also paralleled in the Jedi supreme skill with the lightsaber. The danger lies in the fact that the metal sword has a flat, an edge and a hilt and the lightsaber does not. You yourself many times have spoken of this important difference. I know that the universality of its edge is often not accounted for as much as we would like to think it is.

Any pressing, redirection, deflection and binding must be under great scrutiny. What the old masters did was always seek to attack as much as possible; even while blocking. This as you know is dangerous because of sliding your hands right off. This is why emphasis must be upon Throwing, Beating, Scooping and Lifting in a dynamic mindset over a static positional play.

Example; with my Right foot lead I am using RG, (Could not resist ) I am in Ox (This is where the tip looks like a Ox horn pointing at their eyes; the hilt is back at my head and I have 2 hands upon it) They are in a High Guard (Sometimes called the Roof as well - Looks like it is angled over the shoulder. It does not have as many options as the Roof but is favored as a good starting stance) Their left foot is lead and so they are in a very strong stance as well. Both our blindsides are on the same side which makes for interesting play. Normally I would Blink-Cut them as they cut; their blade would slide down mine as my horizontal action deflected and cut at the same time. I would follow this with a straight or ox thrust depending on the strength of their counter.

Here's the Question: Can I execute my strong counter with a Lightsaber?

The answer is: Only if my lightsaber is plastic!

Many of the things we do with the western style must be adjusted or moderated. How can we do this? I have a solution that has taken me completely by surprise. Every chance you get as an attacker slide down and hit their hands. I train with gloves/ helmet and Bokken or western steel practice weapons. Taking off the hilt has totally changed the way I do things. If they leave their blade for even a second on yours that can be too late for you to pull away because of blade on blade stickiness allows their slide to get you. I would use my Makashi and love redirection as I flanked and then tried to cut and my partner would just flick up to my annoyance.

Many of my disarms, traps and tricks had to be completely thrown away as rubbish with a lightsaber, a clever wielder knows this. Great care must be made in all cuts and blocks with a saber. Through trial and error a few stand out things have emerged. I think we are watching the birth of a genuine true martial tradition here with the Jedi; it is not just a come and go thing anymore; you guys and others are blazing ahead. Your work and others have made the blade come alive again so that is amazing in itself.

If you are treating it like a traditional weapon then everything is fine; transpose techniques your gloves will protect you. If you are looking to use the techniques in the spirit of the lightsaber then everything has to be melted down and refined to very clear principles and tactics.

In the next post I will give you what I have learnt over the last 6-7 months.

Kind Regards
Bluesky

[Bluesky]

I'm definitely starting to come around Eerock; in my old re-enactment days I too loved the clash of armor but have since fallen out of love. What you describe though does sound like a highly effective thing because you can use your techniques as they are really meant to be used! You and Master VorNach are really changing my mind about this. 

Thanks for your kind words earlier and I would love to hear how you go using RG!!!

My RG tip is practice switching to it in your Guards and think about the use of footwork and fakes as I discussed earlier. yu are not going to trouble experienced swordsmen with it by starting with it. Practice switching in guard as you start to cut to disguise the switch; if you catch them napping you can use your momentum to open them up like a can opener. Also the video challenge I posted earlier where you convert Forward to Reverse will show you RG's limits and strengths. You will love some conversions and hate others...

Kind Regards
Bluesky

[Bluesky]

A Beginners Guide to Reverse Grip 1

Hi there from Australia!

If you can, practice these with a partner:

1/ Descending cut: (D-cut) into straight or ox thrust.
2/ Horizontal cut: (H-cut) into straight or ox thrust.
3/ Ascending cut: (A-cut) "He will cut from the roof; displace with power." One-hand right and two hands left.
4/ Displacing into Strike: Roll into the drop down block and roll back around into a beat down upon their blade both sides; both hands never release.
5/ Displacing into Envelopment: The attack is displaced with a drop block one-handed that redirects over the shoulder while the other hand rolls over their arm and tucks it under and the blade rolls over and cuts the head. "He has displaced with a turned hand and will step in front and wrench."
6/ Displacing into Push: High parry and rollover right - The high parry is done with two hands only to the left with the hilt: It immediately rolls to the right as you step forwards with your foot inside theirs pushing their elbow hard. "The thrust to the elbow the man shall not soon forget."
7/ Snake in the Fields: From Plow or Fool cut upwards. One-handed hilt to the right. "He had meant to run forwards with wrath and cut him through the head. This he has displaced from below up with power, and with his pulling up he has cut off his hand."
8/ The Plow Strikes the Stone: Standing in the Plow with reverse grip there is nothing in your profile that looks different from forward. As they cut upwards/horizontal/descending at your hands/hilt/weapon. Step back and roll the tip around and up at their hand/weapon/ even if nothing happens if they rush into that buzz-saw then.... Because you have stepped to an angle and finished in the roof guard. (It can be done two-handed one one)
9/ The Cat Chases the Bird: In Plow or Fool (Right foot forwards); Block with the back of your blade as it angles up and across guarding the flank from left to right. Follow up with a H-cut. "The bird cannot leave the ground before it is caught."
10/ The Pouncing Cat: As above the blade goes up and back across to the right injecting and deflecting and then because it has leverage it cuts down on their blade suppressing it. This can turn into a scoop left if you desire. Your blade is in pole position over theirs, to their perspective this is the back of the blade.
11/ The Charging Pike: Charge forward and thrust upward under their guard at a angle. Nasty, hard to block because of angles.
12/ The Deceiving Pike: Charge with the Pike Thrust and roll around higher and continue the thrust from low to high.
13/ Lizard Hides Under the Rock: From Fool do a quick lift strike up under their blade at their hands usually stymieing them around the center and then flank right and ox thrust around or disengage around and execute a D-cut. The lightsaber makes reverse grip even stronger; these are also practice with FG as a matter of principle.
14/ The Lizard Catches the Moth: Execute a higher lift from fool with what you perceive as the back of the blade as they try to react and counter your position high; drop and H-cut with your blade. Practice cutting both directions with a simple backwards angle step. (Like a side step where the leads change but over to an angle.
15/ The Burning Tower: From High Guard or Crown (Roof) execute a descending cut into their D-cut stepping forwards. Rolling and redirecting around to the right with a side step cut down upon their wrists/arm or Head.
16/ The Dancing Owl: From High Guard or Crown (Roof) execute a descending cut into their D-cut stepping forwards clashing. With the lead grab their hand with your lead hand and cross step right while thrusting. The blade maintains pressure as it thrusts lifting slightly as it moves. It is quite beautiful and elegant.

I hope you find these interesting and lots of fun; in Part 2 - More attacks and counter-attacks.

Print this off and practice it with footwork that suits your style and body type. Unless the drill requires it; move naturally and step as the motion encourages. I have found these basics built from the western tradition often will come up so see how you like them.

Which ones did you like the most?

I hope this is interesting to try with some new twists.

Kind Regards
Bluesky

[eerockk]

I totally want to see the Dancing Owl! These are very enjoyable to read for sure and you've definitely put a lot of work in to this! It's enjoyable to read and imagine the moves. It's quite informative what you've posted, and I'm impressed with the amount of thought and effort you've put into this!

You are thinking of ways to overcome the shortfalls of guarding that RG is known for, and I have a feeling that these short comings are persistent from people knowing about them and not trying to compensate for them and further the form. The only was RG will be able to overcome these issues of defence is by people like you who would bravely forge a new path or work on the said shortcomings. Your perserverance and dedication will be the key to this, Bluesky. I say never give up!

I will now strongly suggest something as per my previous posts. In order to achieve the goal of overcoming the defence shortcomings, and less-powerful attacking that RG is known for, you're going to have to swing your saber with a speed and force that would injure a post box if it were alive, let alone some poor unarmored soul! If you do decide to ultimately not use gear, then at least gear the **** out of your training partner (just for training at least) cause you'd surely kill him/her with the gusto you're going to need to use to get to the level where RG is a threat to a FG user. Again, never give up, Bluesky, and if you gear up a training partner, take advantage of the protection (ie. knock the bum into next Tuesday - he/she won't get hurt!) 

Are you able to provide any working examples of work you've done so far with the form? Your passion for the form has definitely piqued my interest! And not once have you ever come across as rude or frank, man! No worries there either! It's nice to have someone discussing a form with such detail and determination. Thanks, and keep up the good work! 

[Oramac]

I will now strongly suggest something as per my previous posts. In order to achieve the goal of overcoming the defence shortcomings, and less-powerful attacking that RG is known for, you're going to have to swing your saber with a speed and force that would injure a post box if it were alive, let alone some poor unarmored soul! If you do decide to ultimately not use gear, then at least gear the **** out of your training partner (just for training at least) cause you'd surely kill him/her with the gusto you're going to need to use to get to the level where RG is a threat to a FG user. Again, never give up, Bluesky, and if you gear up a training partner, take advantage of the protection (ie. knock the bum into next Tuesday - he/she won't get hurt!) 

This is a great point!  Also one of the reasons I've only been able to spar using my RG work on a few occasions.  It does require a lot of very unorthodox thinking and with that comes a much higher risk for mistakes.   Granted we learn a lot from mistakes, but they can be painful.  Especially the way I'm working with it, which involves a lot of tactics that, unfortunately (but for good reason), would be illegal in most sparring matches. 

[Darth Nonymous]

This is a great point!  Also one of the reasons I've only been able to spar using my RG work on a few occasions.  It does require a lot of very unorthodox thinking and with that comes a much higher risk for mistakes.   Granted we learn a lot from mistakes, but they can be painful.  Especially the way I'm working with it, which involves a lot of tactics that, unfortunately (but for good reason), would be illegal in most sparring matches. 

What would be illegal and why?

And we are waiting to test anyones reverse grip tactics.

[Bluesky]

The Budo of the Jedi 2

Hi there from Australia!

The guards are a important positional advantage that cannot be overlooked that closes gate/quadrants, controls the space/center, and creates advantages in time and the initiative.

Two knights advancing towards each other. One starts in the Fool and the other in the Tail. As they advance the crowd notices that they are dancing, changing from position to postion. As they draw closer they centralize more and more until finally they face off each other. One in the Ox guard and the other knight in the Plow. The Ox is a very strong guard, in reverse grip it is strong one side and fast the other (Hilt to the right like the Form 3 Obi wan stance)

The Knight turns his Ox guard into a thrust and then side-steps into a H-cut. The Plow is very strong in the centre and blocks the first thrrust easilly but cannot counter in time so must block the H-cut. The knight with the initiative decides whether or not to thrust with another ox around their blade or with a straight thrust by the weakness they sense from their opponennts block. Did the first thrust weaken the second block?

He thrusts with a angle step (Side step at a angle forwards or backwards) and the oppossing knight cannot retreat and so must advance to bind. This advancing momentum is then used by the knight to pivot him over his hip onto the ground and the crowd cheers. Of couurse this was all staged and most battles don't even last this long.

The Jedi have to refine their techniques and ideas so that they are quicker, crisper, and much more efficient. Because of the fact that the lightsaber has no hilt changes much and reveals the wisdom of Form 1 - Simple, powerful, clean defense and attack makes sense with a lightsaber. "Know your Self."

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N0OLlYLB2fA" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N0OLlYLB2fA</a>

Beating: Double hitting a blade prevents their ability to stick, slide and measure. This defense can throw off opponents who like to be in control and like to play around with their blade control.
Throwing: If they strike and stick throw their blade away from you and down giving you mechanical advantage over their blade.
Scooping: This is like a throw that continues on around and down.
Lifting: This is seen when luke faces vader in return of the jedi. The lift is a attack/ block that displaces people trying to occupy the center. Fool is a good guard known for this.
Sliding: If they press; slide and attack their hands.
Winding: Taking the initial blow roll the blade around and over displacing their bladeso that you throw their energy away from where your hilt would be.
Deflection: This is where you hit their blade with a parry that redirects them away from the centre injecting energy into their blade.
Blocking: High, Middle, Low and Circling Parries are the most practical and at any time they can turn into any of the above defenses.

I would advise that if they give you energy; use it but avoid as much as you can blade stickiness. Throw them, beat them, block them and if they try to bind flank or use these to have a powerful sense of blade control, not finesse but purposeful crisp actions. "Do not fence a knight." - "Know your enemy."

All it takes with a lightsaber is one blow so using strong blade control and the guards will give you a sense of fighting on your terms. The jedi does not fight their game and seeks every positional advantage possible. The harsh realities of the western sword styles was if it did not work brutally why use it?

Blade control/Blade testing: If you are against a superior opponent attack their blade every chance you get; stop trying to hit them, attack their blade. Like surfing take every wave as it comes and trying not to think too much, just relax and feel the rythem of the engagement. You will find better opponents will be annoyed with you and want you to attack them or stop moving around and attacking their blade because they want you to overextend, mistime, and be drawn into their wheel house. Attempt the defenses above and never let them bladecontrol you. "Know the terrain."

Mistiming: The chinese/japanesse/korean sword schools are masters of mobility and mistiming. Imagine we are dueling with muskets, if I cause you to fire and miss, I can walk up and fire. They stop, start, pause after a attack, jump, cross step and flick their blade knowing it takes very little to defeat someone. Animals play a big part in their teachings like for example the monkey. You might think its antics are amusing until they kick you in the shin or hammerfist you in the face. The monkey misdirects and fakes them out and can absorb fierce attacks. Learn to step one way and then reverse or strike one side while moving to the other or implying one atttitude when you are really just provoking a reaction like a boxer pooching his head forwards. I would enjoy moving forwards aggressively only to retreat/parry/thrust you would be surprised how often this works. Sport fencing is excellent for fitness and mistiming. A pause can be as useful as a attack. TPLA teaches these things very well from what I have seen. "Deception is the art of war."

Guarding: "Control; you must learn control!" - The positional advantages of the guards and knowing how to use them for control, defense and attack will allow a greater mechanical advantage over your opponent. By simply placing your blade at a angle it can move slower and still defeat the fast because of mechanical advantage. RG being the Yin to the FG Yang has some deficiencies that require understanding. Bill "Superfoot" had an extraordinary career but could only kick with one foot. RG is only powerful one way/side and the other side flicks and is fast but cannot hold positions with force. This does not make it weak it makes it unusual like old Bill "Superfoot." His number one techneque was actuall a slip backwards, he used it time and again to tremendous effect to chamber his superfoot! Guarding gives all styles their substance; they are like the bones of combat.

I would love your feedback and your tactics and strategies! Happy hunting!

Kind Regards
Bluesky

[Bluesky]

A Beginners Guide to the Reverse Grip 2

The techniques that flow the best work the best with the RG.

If you haven't read through part 1 then I highly recommend it so that these drills come naturally to you. Emphasis is placed on footwork and cutting control with precision in mind. Playing to the RG's strengths.

If you do not completely follow a earlier post has good links to guard positions or you can just google them for yourself.

If you have any techniques to add please do as well as any questions about the descriptions I am happy to clarify if you message me

Drills Contraire 1-9: (French for hostile, opposite and contradictory)

1/ The Mating Frog: In Fool, Plow or Ox guards, roll the blade up if necessary and across your centre into a right drop block while at the same time side steping left. Fuild, and in control the blade may not even initially come in contact as it rolls into its D-cut. Play with this cut; Wrist, arm, head and the powerful D-cut that contorts the two-hands on the grip cutting from left shoulder to hip. To learn this cut hold the blade in a high parry with the hilt to the left (Two-hands) Cut right to left and return back, now continuously cut left to right returning each time to high parry. When using two hands with RG they both should be pointing knuckles in the same direction like rowing a boat. Jump and say "Ribbit!) That will throw them
2/ The Clubbed Foot: With the blade in the Tail guard, left foot lead, the blade is pointing backwards! This is a emergency technique that surprises them because no matter how hard they strike they draw the tip of the blade at their face. Can also be executed from High into Plow. Swing the blade around into Plow while the left foot pivots to the left! Sliding is a issue here for lightsabres but it is too simple and efficient to leave out. You can do many things here the most simple is step forwards and thrust. The hilt must be held low as the Plow cuts around Practice from high as well as tail and relax as much as possible.
3/ The Falling Log: You are in Ox guard the hilt left with two hands on the blade, they are in High guard right side. Lunge to the left as they execute a D-cut even leaning away as you execute the D-cut left to right rolling over as you learnt before. It finishes in a low Fool to the side of your leg, once this is competant, execute a two hand A-cut up under their wrists, arms or if they have leaned which is common split them straight up. The Rotten Log is a variant that angles the lunge slightly forwards or backward and stops the cut at the target.
4/ Stealing the Crown: Starting in fool while they are in crown; Lift into Ox left with the horn down right foot forwards and side step to the blind side as it rolls over right and around over into the cut. "Taking the crown requires nimble fingers."
5/ Advancing into Thrust: From the High guard right side (2hands) they are doing the same opposite you; step frowards and cut and then advance into a straight thrust or ox thrust or Ox/Straight to bait and then pull back and reengage with a thrust. This is best execute when you initial step is not perfectly forward but to the flank, a angle step.
6/ Blink Cut: It is fast and deadly and interupts their plans and is H-cut across the eyes. Done right to left with two hands and one of the gems of RG left to right 1 hand on the grip. It rolls and flicks out and so often as not interupts their plans because the "The Threat is more powerful then the execution."
7/ The Barking Dog: From two high guards both D-cut and then from the rebound energy the blade rolls around and cuts up at their hand and wrist. "Don't bite the hand that feeds you." It rolls 1handed and is very fast and effective.
8/ The Running Dog: This is exactly as above but after your clash one or two quick retreats gives your space and battle persective. Good to set them up thinking you are a rabit when really you would love to charge through right or left and cut through.
9/ The Wagging Tail: From the Tail guard step forwards with a power H-cut right at their stomach, advance into a straight or ox thrust and press right in. The Tail obviously need space and distance but you will work it out. Instead of a advance you can lunge as well.

Switching to RG is effortless and its mindset will ask new questions of your opponent. More to come; enjoy and discuss your results and enjoyment. Take up what is useful and discard whatever you don't like.

Consider these Flow Drills like any other drill; train until they are easy before moving on and repeat them quickly by returning quickly. Share the fun if you have a partner!

Food For Thought and Tips

Don't fight by their game.
Use angles and footwork.
Know the RG like you do the FG.
Be patient and don't try to switch to RG straight away, develop a big bag of tricks first; especially the basics!
Use armor and really let loose.

Thanks for reading this; here is your RG fix!!!

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oyH0lmP4N7Y" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oyH0lmP4N7Y</a>

Kind Regards
Bluesky
(I love the Dancing owl as well!!!!)

[Oramac]

What would be illegal and why?

And we are waiting to test anyones reverse grip tactics.

I've been inspired to accelerate my timeline and started recording my work with intent to post rather than reference.  I'm hoping to have it all done by Saturday.  I go over a lot of this in it, but one of the main techniques that I can see being frowned upon in sparring is a pommel strike to the head.   

[Darth Nonymous]

I've been inspired to accelerate my timeline and started recording my work with intent to post rather than reference.  I'm hoping to have it all done by Saturday.  I go over a lot of this in it, but one of the main techniques that I can see being frowned upon in sparring is a pommel strike to the head.   

Pommel strikes to the head are legal in SaberLab full contact rules. Even with light contact. We just don't score them. As long as you are wearing a fencing helmet or other protection. With full pads, there isn't a lot that needs to be illegal. You can make them illegal to make the match play out a certain way, but otherwise, you can go full on to any protected area.

WEAR GEAR

[Oramac]

Pommel strikes to the head are legal in SaberLab full contact rules. Even with light contact. We just don't score them. As long as you are wearing a fencing helmet or other protection. With full pads, there isn't a lot that needs to be illegal. You can make them illegal to make the match play out a certain way, but otherwise, you can go full on to any protected area.

WEAR GEAR

Fair enough.  I'd always assumed gear would be worn.  What I wasn't sure of was how well a fencing helmet would stand up to an aluminum hilt instead of a polycarbonate blade.  Especially in a thrusting situation.

[eerockk]

Fair enough.  I'd always assumed gear would be worn.  What I wasn't sure of was how well a fencing helmet would stand up to an aluminum hilt instead of a polycarbonate blade.  Especially in a thrusting situation.

What about a Kendo men? I'm sure you could take a brick to the face wearing one of those. The three blade mask should be OK to withstand it too though.

[Oramac]

What about a Kendo men? I'm sure you could take a brick to the face wearing one of those. The three blade mask should be OK to withstand it too though.

That would probably work really well.  My only concern would be the space between the bars being too large and letting a blade through.