Jedi, sith, Grey Jedi, Force Adepts, Dark Acolytes, etc.

[Master Rel]

And many more.

All just names, or are they?

First off, my EU and related outside prime canon is limited at best...so rather than throw rocks assuming I know, ask first, because I may not know...which is one of the reasons I post these sort of threads...to ask questions, to find answers, to fill in blanks  

For me I tend to see things in black and white, then consider the same in primary colors (RBG), and finally opening up to look at secondary, tertiary, quaternary, quinary, senary, septenary, octonary, nonary, and denary but never  duodenary...that would be just silly.

Looking at the first step...black or white...sith or Jedi.  Fairly simple for me to accept and move on. Then there are characters who are interesting rather than powerful...I do not offer any support for ultra powerful video game characters, these being vulgar expressions of leveling up.  But the interesting ones...those force sensitives who do not follow Jedi or sith, maybe not walking alone but certainly a different path.

There seems like there is plenty of room for lots more than Jedi and sith.

It should be noted I am completely against sith, evil being evil, I am not evil so I must abhor...this said, they make excellent villains  

Now if we look at a group studying the force, applying techniques as they see fit due to their philosophies, and other such (not so much the optional careers per say like inquisitors and assassins, but rather orders following a different path...not right or wrong, just different)...like the B'omarr, separating themselves off from all sensations to better feel the flow of the living force...they accepted many taboo techniques in the name of research and study.  Completely cool on the one hand and absolutely bat-shell crazy on the other lol. But clearly, a defined different path.

So with this in mind, how many orders are there out there.  Again not looking for video game force ninjas or such, more along the lines of established orders that seek to know, use, or be of service to the force.

Jedi are the baseline in my eyes, keeping their excess emotions in check to better serve others. The sith follow the emotional path to serve themselves. B'omarr seek the completely mental and spiritual path for its own sake.

This sort of thing.

The thread title "Jedi, sith, Grey Jedi, Force Adepts, Dark Acolytes, etc." was more of a hook to draw folks in  

Force Adapts are interesting as are Mystics.

Anyway...what say you all?

Is there room for more than Jedi and sith...it would certainly open doors for our common fan base as well as reduce arguments...the Jedi vs sith one pops up a lot...a lot.

(clearly there is room, as they are included in stories and such, I speak of why don't forumites claim these other groups rather than Jedi or sith?)

Thanks for wading through my thoughts  lol  

[chicago.jedi]

The questions you pose reminds me of the thread I started about the Grey Jedi concept. You ask, "...why don't forumites claim these other groups rather than Jedi or Sith," and I never really got a good answer to that. We have Jedi, we have Sith, and we have those who wish to remain Grey which I never really got a good sense of why some are attracted to that idea. I have my theories but I do not want to start any arguments or hurt any feelings.

As for the other catagories you mentioned, I never really knew they had a name. I assume that there would be Force sensitives who follow the Light path but are simply not affiliated with the formal Jedi Order. I assume the Sith would have the same kind of unaffiliated followers of the Dark Side. Those who walk a line between light and dark I have a harder time with since such a path, to me at least, seems exausting and a constant internal struggle. Perhaps this is more on par with real life, but Star Wars is fantasy, not real life. Who would really want that struggle?

Perhaps there are not as many on the forum who claim the other titles since those groups are not as prevelant as the Jedi and Sith in the movies. Most people have seen the movies and that is Star Wars to them, so naturally the choice would come down to Jedi or Sith.

I think I would always choose the Jedi Order as my affiliation. It is very much in line with other organizations I have belonged to in terms of codes of conduct. The only other organization that I have read about that even interests me is the Imperial Knights. They have a code of conduct that seems in line with a men's fraternity I belong to. But the Jedi are still the front runner by a long shot, for me.

Anyway, interesting thread. I love the philosophical stuff, too. It is fun to get into the deep end from time to time. 

[Rina Ascura]

Dark Acolytes are just Dooku's pirated Sith knock-offs. Just like the Seven Dark Jedi, the Reborn and the Shadow Academy of the post-Imperial era.

[James Casey]

<ramble>

The Jedi are by far the most predominant group of Force users in the GFFA. They work hard to identify potential Jedi at a young age, and bring them to the Academy for training pretty much from infancy.

The Sith work in the shadows. Even allowing for the sects who ignore the Rule of Two, there'd only be a comparative handful of Sith active at any time - dozens or hundreds, perhaps, compared to the tens or even hundreds of thousands of Jedi active at the Order's peak. Still, for fans, they're almost as prominent in the films simply by virtue of the focus falling on them almost as much as the Jedi, despite the disparity in numbers.
 
There are those who've trained as Jedi, but take different paths. Correllian Jedi would marry, for example, and typically stay in and around their home system. They were still Jedi, but not strict adherents to the 'mainstream' Jedi code promoted by the Corsucant-based Order.

Other groups of Jedi-trained Force users might work more or less closely with the Coruscant Jedi. The Gray Paladins, for example, were martial Jedi who worked for great skill in combat. Other Jedi opened themselves to love, and indeed all emotions. Kyle Katarn is an example of a Jedi (albeit from the post-films EU) who took the view that there were no light or dark side powers - just intent on the part of the user.

Have those ideas caught on among fans? Absolutely - but then, everyone wants to be a unique renegade Jedi, not afraid to love, or not afraid to give in to anger when they feel its appropriate, or working on their own Form VIII/IX/X...

The Jedi (and the Sith) are the most visible Force adherents in Star Wars. That means they're the ones who'll have the most fans, and searching out alternatives might not even occur to those fans. You could say they lie at the extremes of the spectrums, but that's probably not true. A Force user who surrenders themselves wholly to the Force would be a more extreme example, whether Light or Dark.

Jedi and Sith are probably somewhere more right of centre and left of centre (no politics, please!) on a light/dark chart. Their philosophies are sufficiently flexible to allow different interpretations to be developed by individuals while still being Jedi or Sith (I want to marry! I want to rule the galaxy in opulence! I want to live the ascetic life, wholly in communion with the Living Force!). In that, at least, the Jedi and Sith were the same - indeed, many of their teachings and practices were very close, if mirrored in intent at times.

Unaligned Force users could fall anywhere on the scale. Dark Jedi are, I believe, specifically those who've fallen from the Jedi path and act for themselves, but without necessarily adhering to any higher code the way the Sith do. They're selfish, or proud, or fearful, and don't act for others in the selfless way the Jedi seek to do. However, they wouldn’t necessarily be evil – not all the way to the depths of the Dark Side, yellow eyes and necrotic flesh be damned. Some would, some would just be petty and venal, and they might have nothing else in common other than not being Light Side adherents.

Grey Jedi would still be Light overall, I think, but their tactics might not be wholly those of the Jedi, and they might not receive the support and endorsement of the Jedi, dependent on their actions. My understanding is that neither term (Grey or Dark) would refer to a formal group or teaching - rather they're blanket terms for Force users who follow paths that travel along recognisable lines.

As for the specific Orders, I wonder how many are splinter groups from the Jedi themselves? The Jedi clearly sought to eradicate all Dark influences from their teachings, removing temptation as much as possible from the lives of their members. Of course, the power granted by the Force is a temptation in its own right, and the B'omarr, the Aing-Tii monks and others all sought to understand the Force as far as possible, at the expense of not being out in the galaxy and experiencing it.

It seems that the Jedi sought a more general understanding of the Force, in service of justice and generally doing good, while many of the other groups sought to specialise or delve deeper, in some cases at the cost of service. That desire may have been seen as dangerous by the Jedi, who promoted service to allow a Jedi the context for the more philosophical explorations of the Force that seemed to call to many later in their lives. It's easy to say 'My way is the right way' without understanding of why your way may, perhaps, have been tried before - and now lies behind a heavy barricade with many Keep Clear signs, alarms, and heavily armed guards intent on preventing anyone taking that way again

Perhaps the different approaches to the Force can be seen as colours on the spectrum (and we're coming back towards lightsabres here, or at least blade colours). Different orders may be distinct colours, or shades of primary colours with greater or lesser differences. To an outsider, green is green, but for a knowledgeable Force user, Emerald Green, Consular Green and Sunrider's Destiny are all quite distinct from one another - and the differences so great that they might feel there could be no common ground between them.

In practise, though, most Force users were Jedi, or some variation or sub-group thereof. Where a distinct separate group existed, it seems their numbers were so small they were unlikely to have much influence or recognition outside of their small circle. And to a lot of people it would have been Force user = Jedi, and that would be the end of it.

</ramble>

[Master Rel]

Great answers indeed!

Points   


For me, I could and would except that there are many splinter groups of Jedi. Those that allow even one aspect that is different than the Jedi Council would allow or prefer...allowing all the splinter members to pursue relationships and marry as life and time would allow with the mission first (like being in the military, you can marry but there is no guarantee you will be home every night to enjoy this situation, work comes first)...or other small aspects rather than huge sweeping differences.

Staying home, married, only male or only female, only light or dark Force abilities, sabers and blasters, etc.

The only real issue with being Rogue Jedi or other independent types, where they follow their own path, is that without a complete support system the opportunity for real advancement is limited at best...so basically be on your own and their would be no senior or Master level...just independent Jane or Joe Force sensitive.

The quick response to this would be "well my vision is that a Jedi Master left the order to be Rogue" or "what about Luke, he had limited training and became Grand Master".  A person who dedicates enough of themselves to become a Jedi Master is severely unlikely to walk away and if something so dramatic happened to make them walk away it could just as easily drive them to exile, retirement, hermitage, etc. rather than pursuing a splinter order.  And Luke, well he is an extreme exception with writer's favor, so unless you are considering playing along on God mode (if so, just move along as our sandbox is not big enough for your ego lol) this level of potential is one in a billion of those who are already one in a billion.  So in other words, too extreme to consider as potential.

What about Count Dooku?  He is one of those rare characters, and I liked this guy on paper quite a bit.  There was a real chance for Dooku to leave the Jedi Order to start a splinter group,but they wasted him on the sith...sigh.

The Witches of Dathomir are an interesting consideration, bringing Force fueled magics to the table.  Surely there must also be Warlocks of "insert name here" 

So much potential in my mind.

Good stuff keep it coming.

[Rina Ascura]

The Witches of Dathomir are an interesting consideration, bringing Force fueled magics to the table.  Surely there must also be Warlocks of "insert name here"  

There are, in fact, a lot of various warlocks, wizards and sorcerers. Sorcerers of Tund, Sorcerers of Rhand, the ancient Sith Purebloods understood the Force as magic, too, and the Ysanna of Ossus too. It appears that "Magic" is the standard Force paradigm of every pre-industrial society. Any society that still clings to magical thinking, that knows neither organized religion nor scientific method, uses the Force as "magic spells".

The difference is that the Jedi and modern Sith understanding of the Force is that of technologically advanced cultures; it gently sidesteps the laws of physics or even uses them in some way. The magical way of understanding the Force smashes the laws of physics like possums on a highway, without even noticing.

[Luna]

I'm disappointed that nobody has brought up the Fallanassi....

Anyway, here's a full list.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/The_Force#Organized_Force_traditions

[Kitra]

Hello Relmeob!

When there is only the interest in knowing which force sensitive "castes" outside of games exist then Luna answered that very easyily with a complete list. By the way Luna i was waiting for the Jensaarai...

But i saw that the answers given above are far more concerning the metaspectrum of this thought as a whole like the definition of light/dark approaching a philosophical view.

So i would like to ask what your intention is exactly since you have a "bite" theme and below the main question about the different forceuser traditions.

Basicly: What are you really asking for?

I am asking because i enjoy the philosophical debatte and exchange of ideas very much but i dont want to lead your post ad absurdum before making sure what you "would like to read" here.

My best wishes!

Kitra

[Oramac]

I'm answering before I read all the others, to prevent influencing my initial reaction/answer.

So with this in mind, how many orders are there out there.

In theory, there's an infinite number of possible orders, just as there is an infinite number of points on a circle. 

Jedi are the baseline in my eyes, keeping their excess emotions in check to better serve others. The sith follow the emotional path to serve themselves.

I agree, though I don't subscribe to the belief that serving myself first is inherently evil.  Call it the Objectivist in me.  I help others by first helping myself.  This is one reason I identify more with the Sith than with the Jedi.  I don't agree with their use of certain ideas, like genocide, but I do agree with their philosophy of making a better me.  If I create a business to make money for myself, I am helping others by providing jobs and putting money into the economy.   Win-win on both ends. 

Anyhow, to answer your question, there's really no end to the possibilities available on the spectrum of the Force.  Even more so since it's not even a real thing.  It's limited only by our imaginations, which are limitless. 

[Master Rel]

Any and all discussion related to the organized Force users and their core philosophies are welcome on this thread

Again great responses all!

Points

[Kitra]

He he he open for everything i like that.

The different approaches adherent from the many force using castes are are inside the star wars universe influenced by the simple fact that extremes lead to extremes as an addicting influence while this is not the case in real life.
So at first i would like to point out that a direct conversion of either faiths is not possible.

I experienced a warning for another thread as well that we shall not indulge in a conversation which drifts into religional ideas so i just keep my ideas clean and simple from the sight of someone who always looks to enrich his life with wisdom from any source. Wisdom which helps me to grow and to evolve.

Star wars shows due to its duality in mainbelieves a great opportunity to jump doctrines and confront one self with different ideas. As well as of course the very common question what is evil? What is good?

When we take the Jedi and Sith into consideration we see 2 groups of wise as well as physically sturdy individuals which has their nearly unshakable code of conduct. So far i see them as two weights on a libra which hold themselves at balance sometimes tiptoeing to one side sometimes to another.

The interesting idea is what is with all the neutrals?
They basicly have to stand and take everything the 2 sides dish out due to the fact that they are not so sensitive to the ripples in the force in order to adjust quickly enough when a change is introducing itself.

When we zoom out of the picture I see that this balance is induced due to the weight of the 2 extremes but transmitted through the neutrals to “show” the balance which never ever at no time dipped to a total necrotic state of no change at all.

With that we have a perfect universe which can not let go of the neutrals the extremes and everything in between forming a perfect system in which everyone may grow and perceive himself as an individual with the perspective as the center of all that what is.

Absolutely beautiful harmony.


I for one are a big fan of the ancient Egyptian believe of Maat and since I look out for this principals I perceived them in Star Wars as well.
The struggle for power and peace become a harmonic tune of melody originating from the instrument formed from neutrals which as the majority are the map everyone is walking on.

[Oramac]

So at first i would like to point out that a direct conversion of either faiths is not possible.

That hasn't stopped people from trying! 

http://www.jedichurch.org/


And that's the extent of religion that I'll bring up.  Moving on.....

[TheHobbitofDune]

I personally believe that "Grey Jedi" is a total cop out. Also, I no longer consider myself a Jedi, really. I always end up thinking about who I really am as far as Star Wars classes or categories go, and I feel that "benevolent bounty hunter" works best for me. No, that is not a paradox. I just prefer the freedom of being a bounty hunter, but at the same time I still want to be part of the light side. So there you go.

Also, lightsabers are overrated.

[Kitra]

That hasn't stopped people from trying! 

http://www.jedichurch.org/


And that's the extent of religion that I'll bring up.  Moving on.....

Yepp there is a big group on facebook.
When you like deep ideological and philosophical exchanges check it out.
I can definetly recomment this group many nice minds and heartsets there.

[chicago.jedi]

In all of these types of discussions, one big opposition to the Jedi Order I keep reading is the idea of not allowing marriage. Relmeob made a comparison to the military allowing marriage but having no guarantee of having a real familiy life. That is a near perfect reason for Jedi not marrying as I can think of.

However, I hope that in the next movies, we get to see married Jedi (didn't Luke actually get married in the EU?) Perhaps this would help to steer more people to be in favor of the Jedi if they saw them as part of families and had loved ones. It would help to humanize them more. I think we might discover that many people are judging the Jedi only on one fixed point in "history." Much of the criticism of the Jedi seems to be fixated on the ways of the Jedi from the prequel movies, in which the Jedi are very much monk like. The original trilogy movies are a bad example of the ways of the Jedi because, let's face it, there are only three Jedi to judge, and Luke is hardly typical.

I think perhaps the Jedi Order of the Clone Wars Era might be better thought of as Orthodox Jedi. Very devout and strict and not really a good base line to gauge from. In any walk of life there are varying levels of devotion and I would think the Jedi are the same way. Perhaps the limited number of Jedi we see depicted in the movies are really not a good cross section to judge the entire Jedi way by after all.  Most of the principle Jedi in Ep 1,2 and 3 are council members and are going to be held to a higher standard of conduct anyway. They would have to be or else they would not be on the High Council.

I would like to see more about the rank and file Jedi and what they were like. If the Jedi are the defenders of the galaxy, they can not all be "generals." There have to be fome sergeants too.