Sith or Jedi story

[Master Rel]

Children aren't generally taken by force (no pun intended) by the Jedi. The Jedi show interest in the infant and usually convince the parents that they will live a better life as a Jedi. It strengthens their numbers and provides, in some instances, a better home for the child. Say a baby was born on Nar Shaddaa to a poor family and a Jedi approached them, it would not be hard to convince the parents to let the baby go so it may live a better quality of life. And during some times of war, when the Jedi need to increase their numbers desperately, Jedi are allowed to have children. But no contact and they cannot raise them themselves. Of course in the NJO, marriage is perfectly fine.

I know  

I was including a couple of the core arguments from our more vocal debaters to let them know I was listening to them.

[Darth Severus]

Hmm I guess a very pushing factor for the Sith acceptance is that nealry all Sith girls have a high sex appeal. ^^
When I think of advertising than i know that everything shiny and of course sexy are among the best selling points for anything storys included.

I cant blame anyone on the dark side... 

I couldn't tell was this supposed to be sarcastic? The points I made were earnest and they were not about advertising or packaging, they were about the changing nature of the world. Alot has happened in the last 30 years and to pretend otherwise is naive at best. I was suggesting that societies values have changed since a new hope premiered, and we see things differently then we did then. Much like we view womens rights differently in 1980 then we did in 1950, values change over time.

[Master Rel]

I couldn't tell was this supposed to be sarcastic? The points I made were earnest and they were not about advertising or packaging, they were about the changing nature of the world. Alot has happened in the last 30 years and to pretend otherwise is naive at best. I was suggesting that societies values have changed since a new hope premiered, and we see things differently then we did then. Much like we view womens rights differently in 1980 then we did in 1950, values change over time.

Keep in mind that not everyone here is speaking/typing English as a first language, Kitra is one of these folks...I am sure he was just making a small joke and nothing was meant by it.

PS
I like the sexy sith girls 

[Darth Severus]

Keep in mind that not everyone here is speaking/typing English as a first language, Kitra is one of these folks...I am sure he was just making a small joke and nothing was meant by it.

PS
I like the sexy sith girls 

I know and the question was earnest as well, the tone was aggressive because to be honest I'm getting overly tired of the superiority complex that in my opinion a lot of the Jedi proponets our laying on people who side with the sith, (as an aside I do not believe in the Sith Code our their choices but they are entitled to their beliefs and entittle to have their views fought for). Stating opinion as fact. Then decrying the few Sith as good guy examples as being wrong with never, and I to my recolection can honestly say never, showing any proof to the Jedi =good equation. What makes the Jedi good? Are their actual examples of them doing good deeds. Or our their just examples of them marrying themselves to the republic, and keeping the status quo, maintaining the decadence and depravity of the higher circle of republic life. The Jedi have no care or concern for the common people, how can you be good without that?

[Kitra]

I couldn't tell was this supposed to be sarcastic? The points I made were earnest and they were not about advertising or packaging, they were about the changing nature of the world. Alot has happened in the last 30 years and to pretend otherwise is naive at best. I was suggesting that societies values have changed since a new hope premiered, and we see things differently then we did then. Much like we view womens rights differently in 1980 then we did in 1950, values change over time.

I am so sorry that you felt insulted by that. By all means i didnt want to set you up by this.
While I was posting this reply I was looking at the Gamescom pictures of last year recognicing that all the "sexy outfits" (including the ones of my girlfriend and sister ^^) were Sith. And since it is no secret that sex sells I just wanted to put that out there.
And I would like to offer you to read some of my replys in my account so that you get an idea what I think of that you have described properly.
I am totally on your side mate.

Serenity yet passion.

Please accept my apologies.

We have 5 pictures with 3 different Jedi and around 2 folders (32 pictures each) with Sith cosplayers.
So the majority is very obvious.

Keep in mind that not everyone here is speaking/typing English as a first language, Kitra is one of these folks...I am sure he was just making a small joke and nothing was meant by it.

PS
I like the sexy sith girls  

You catch my drift  

[Master Rel]

I know and the question was earnest as well, the tone was aggressive because to be honest I'm getting overly tired of the superiority complex that in my opinion a lot of the Jedi proponets our laying on people who side with the sith, (as an aside I do not believe in the Sith Code our their choices but they are entitled to their beliefs and entittle to have their views fought for). Stating opinion as fact. Then decrying the few Sith as good guy examples as being wrong with never, and I to my recolection can honestly say never, showing any proof to the Jedi =good equation. What makes the Jedi good? Are their actual examples of them doing good deeds. Or our their just examples of them marrying themselves to the republic, and keeping the status quo, maintaining the decadence and depravity of the higher circle of republic life. The Jedi have no care or concern for the common people, how can you be good without that?

I can see how this could cause you a measure of tiredness.

On the same coin, the other side is that we or at least I being one of these who surely irritate the sith community with my pro Jedi flag waving is that to be honest I'm getting overly tired of the superiority complex that in my opinion a lot of the sith proponets our laying on people who side with the Jedi.

While you have brought up the argument of "what good have the Jedi done" before, instead of focusing on this let us note the vast catalog of heinous acts that sith characters have racked up.

This is not a stab at the people who favor sith characters.

No one is saying if you like sith then you are evil.

If you subjugate cultures because you want power, if you murder children because your dark master said to, and if you blow up planets to make a point...well then you would be evil.

The argument of "what good have the Jedi done" just baffles me.  

I guess I could pour over vast amounts of media looking for this evidence you seek, but it seems senseless to me...because they are what they are.

What good do policemen do? Day to day they serve and protect...do you need to see a list of what they did to recognize this?

Yes I know Earth policemen are not Jedi from another Galaxy, but the real world example works for me.

I know you are a rational person so I am not going to insult your intelligence.  If you feel the Jedi are not good guys for whatever reason then that is what you believe.

Uncle Lucas says they are so at least for me, that is enough.

It is all fiction...fantasy...his fiction and fantasy.

Others may have continued and wrote other stories, but all within his sandbox.

If you want to say the Jedi have no proof of being good then that is how it is for you.  I do not understand, but I don't have to.  Your vision and opinions are yours to have and I support you in these.

More power to you my friend.

There is plenty of room for all of us in the Star Wars galaxy...even Jedi who may or may not be good guys.

[Kitra]

I can only repeat myself on that point.

When you are a father you would never give your baby into the hands of a Sith.

Everyone who can slightly relate to that or having anything else in his live where he has to take responsibility except for himself than you can feel me.

And I am saying that while playing a Sith in SWTOR and officially Cosplaying as a Sith as a part timer for EA Games at each Gamescom since 3 years.

So yepp Sith are cool. And its fun to play a little bit of pretend, but for real life i seek harmony love and acceptance and i am able to give all that i seek back as well in my strive for it.

Healing is so much more filling my heart than taking away or destroy or controll others.
And its the hard way to at the momentary state of morals in our civilisation where money and power are more cherrished than sharing and love.

[Darth_Arkanus]

See, I do see a self-interest in the Jedi order, that being to hold onto the hallowed and feared position they hold (look at the Nemoidians reaction when they realise TWO Jedi have landed on their ship)

Quotes

1,

"Have you ever encountered a Jedi before Sir?"

"I, no, close the blast doors!"

"That won't be enough, we won't survive this!"

2,

"Wh-at, what did you say?"

"The Ambassadors are Jedi Knights I believe" (droid)

"I knew it! They're here to force a settlement!"

"Distract them, I will contact Lord Sidious"

"Are you braindead? I'm not going in there with two Jedi!"

3,

"This scheme of yours has failed Lord Sidious! We dare not go against the Jedi!"

People are TERRIFIED of them and the Jedi know it!

On the child thing, sure, you can take a disadvantaged baby and make the case easily that they would be "better off" within the order. But how would you convince a Senator from Naboo, Coruscant or Alderaan that it was in THEIR child's "best interest"? They have a silver spoon in their mouths and every advantage they could ever need already? Yet the Jedi's ranks swell from all strata of the Galaxy's social life.

Also, put yourself in the parent's position, are you REALLY going to give up your child to a perfect stranger just because he claims that your child is "gifted"? Are you really going to give your child up into a life of unquestioning servitude and NEVER see it again, just on the say-so of some "salesman" for a religious sect? Only reason I can think so many in the Galaxy do that on Star Wars is because they fear the Jedi, and see they have no option.

One final point, on the difference between Jedi and Sith; the path of the Sith is chosen, the path of the Jedi is chosen FOR THEM! (Like some kind of crazy, arranged marriage!)

[Kitra]

See, I do see a self-interest in the Jedi order, that being to hold onto the hallowed and feared position they hold (look at the Nemoidians reaction when they realise TWO Jedi have landed on their ship)

Quotes

1,

"Have you ever encountered a Jedi before Sir?"

"I, no, close the blast doors!"

"That won't be enough, we won't survive this!"

2,

"Wh-at, what did you say?"

"The Ambassadors are Jedi Knights I believe" (droid)

"I knew it! They're here to force a settlement!"

"Distract them, I will contact Lord Sidious"

"Are you braindead? I'm not going in there with two Jedi!"

3,

"This scheme of yours has failed Lord Sidious! We dare not go against the Jedi!"

People are TERRIFIED of them and the Jedi know it!

On the child thing, sure, you can take a disadvantaged baby and make the case easily that they would be "better off" within the order. But how would you convince a Senator from Naboo, Coruscant or Alderaan that it was in THEIR child's "best interest"? They have a silver spoon in their mouths and every advantage they could ever need already? Yet the Jedi's ranks swell from all strata of the Galaxy's social life.

Also, put yourself in the parent's position, are you REALLY going to give up your child to a perfect stranger just because he claims that your child is "gifted"? Are you really going to give your child up into a life of unquestioning servitude and NEVER see it again, just on the say-so of some "salesman" for a religious sect? Only reason I can think so many in the Galaxy do that on Star Wars is because they fear the Jedi, and see they have no option.

One final point, on the difference between Jedi and Sith; the path of the Sith is chosen, the path of the Jedi is chosen FOR THEM! (Like some kind of crazy, arranged marriage!)

The Neimodians have fear since they know that they will get into custody Jedi are not known to kill but to take arrest. And they tryed to kill the 2 Jedi in the first place so... Hmm I guess they thought that they will be killed in return.
We both know that Qui Gonn wouldnt go there and just chop their head of.

And to the Parents position.. You are making a good point. the parents have a choice!!! While the Sith just take what they want or destroy it or use it to their ends.
And the Jedi are not feared. I want a text passage or anything out of star wars which underlines this idea in a way where we can see that not the "bad guys" fear them but a larger majority of innocents.

[Nhylus]

See, I do see a self-interest in the Jedi order, that being to hold onto the hallowed and feared position they hold (look at the Nemoidians reaction when they realise TWO Jedi have landed on their ship)

Quotes

1,

"Have you ever encountered a Jedi before Sir?"

"I, no, close the blast doors!"

"That won't be enough, we won't survive this!"

2,

"Wh-at, what did you say?"

"The Ambassadors are Jedi Knights I believe" (droid)

"I knew it! They're here to force a settlement!"

"Distract them, I will contact Lord Sidious"

"Are you braindead? I'm not going in there with two Jedi!"

3,

"This scheme of yours has failed Lord Sidious! We dare not go against the Jedi!"

People are TERRIFIED of them and the Jedi know it!

On the child thing, sure, you can take a disadvantaged baby and make the case easily that they would be "better off" within the order. But how would you convince a Senator from Naboo, Coruscant or Alderaan that it was in THEIR child's "best interest"? They have a silver spoon in their mouths and every advantage they could ever need already? Yet the Jedi's ranks swell from all strata of the Galaxy's social life.

Also, put yourself in the parent's position, are you REALLY going to give up your child to a perfect stranger just because he claims that your child is "gifted"? Are you really going to give your child up into a life of unquestioning servitude and NEVER see it again, just on the say-so of some "salesman" for a religious sect? Only reason I can think so many in the Galaxy do that on Star Wars is because they fear the Jedi, and see they have no option.

One final point, on the difference between Jedi and Sith; the path of the Sith is chosen, the path of the Jedi is chosen FOR THEM! (Like some kind of crazy, arranged marriage!)

This isnt always chosen for the Sith. You are forgetting the times of the Sith Empire. The Dark Jedi corrupted an entire species with lies and deceit. And they raised their young to become evil force-sensitives. If you are weak, you will be slain, and the Sith have no quarrel about how old you are. Anakin Skywalker is a good example of this.

Also, all Jedi have the choice to leave the Order at anytime. They are not held there against their will. The only thing they dont get a say in is the first few years of their life before training starts.
A Sith can never leave. A Sith will always be forced to be a Sith, unless they seek asylum with the Jedi Order. This is especially true in the times of the Old Republic, where it was Imperial Law that all force sensitives had to go to the academy to be trained and in doing so, it caused the weak force-sensitives to be executed.

Now in a post 9/11 world, a world where a small group can strike as much fear if not more then an invading army lines of good and bad get blurred. You add in a 24 hour news industry that profits of turmiol, grief, fear and conflict and you get a world of hard to define values. That fact that these values leach into fiction and fantasy is almost unavoidable. Good and bad in Star Wars has changed because the world has changed or at least our view of it has.

I dont really think 9/11 can apply. First, it was only in America, sooo it did not affect the rest the world like it did the US. As tragic as 9/11 was, it did not change everything. Terrorism existed long before it.
The prequel trilogies, Order 66 specifically, was inspired by the real life event of Friday the 13th in which all the Knights Templar were slain across the world. Letters were sent to each country they were based, and the envelopes specifically stated do not open until Friday, 13 October 1307. All the letters were opened and the cities which welcomed and housed the Knights had captured and executed all of them because they were deemed traitors to the Vatican. In reality, the French King owed a debt to the Knights, and wanted it absolved, he had help from the Pope and together they destroyed the Knights Templar.

And the Jedi are not feared. I want a text passage or anything out of star wars which underlines this idea in a way where we can see that not the "bad guys" fear them but a larger majority of innocents.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Anti-Jedi_sentiment
The biggest instance of it was propoganda spread by Sidious so that the galaxy would accept the destruction of the Jedi.
Honestly, the only reason a Jedi is to be feared is ignorance. There are many reasons to fear the Sith.

[Darth_Arkanus]

The Neimodians have fear since they know that they will get into custody Jedi are not known to kill but to take arrest. And they tryed to kill the 2 Jedi in the first place so... Hmm I guess they thought that they will be killed in return.
We both know that Qui Gonn wouldnt go there and just chop their head of.

And to the Parents position.. You are making a good point. the parents have a choice!!! While the Sith just take what they want or destroy it or use it to their ends.
And the Jedi are not feared. I want a text passage or anything out of star wars which underlines this idea in a way where we can see that not the "bad guys" fear them but a larger majority of innocents.

A quote from Canon? Simple!

"Jedi business, go back to your drinks" Anakin to a bar full of onlookers, who turn away on command! This also underlines the Jedi's feeling of having a "right" to act with impunity, whenever it suits them....and nobody questions it!

[Nhylus]

A quote from Canon? Simple!

"Jedi business, go back to your drinks" Anakin to a bar full of onlookers, who turn away on command! This also underlines the Jedi's feeling of having a "right" to act with impunity, whenever it suits them....and nobody questions it!

I hope you realize that quote made everyone in the audience feel embarrassed from his youthful nativity and arrogance. I was 9 when I saw AOTC in theatres, and even I thought to myself "I cant frelling believe he just said that" *facepalm*. It was the cheesiest line of the whole movie. But you're over analyzing that quote too much. Its none of the bar patrons business, the part that was so cringe-worthy was the "jedi-business". It was cheesy beyond measure.

[Darth_Arkanus]

Also, all Jedi have the choice to leave the Order at anytime. They are not held there against their will. The only thing they dont get a say in is the first few years of their life before training starts.

Assuming they have somewhere to go! The Order does a pretty descent job of ensuring that is not the case. Attachment is forbidden, outside contact is forbidden, at first, then strictly monitored thereafter.

A Sith can never leave. A Sith will always be forced to be a Sith, unless they seek asylum with the Jedi Order.

This idea amuses me greatly! The Jedi would just as soon lop a Sith's head off, as give them shelter!

Honestly, the only reason a Jedi is to be feared is ignorance. There are many reasons to fear the Sith.

That's a very Jedi perspective on it really; it's a bit like saying, "Only the guilty, who have something to hide, have a problem with policemen!"

[Darth_Arkanus]

I hope you realize that quote made everyone in the audience feel embarrassed from his youthful nativity and arrogance. I was 9 when I saw AOTC in theatres, and even I thought to myself "I cant frelling believe he just said that" *facepalm*. It was the cheesiest line of the whole movie. But you're over analyzing that quote too much. Its none of the bar patrons business, the part that was so cringe-worthy was the "jedi-business". It was cheesy beyond measure.

Correct, it wasn't any of their business, but Anakin's arrogant presumption to TELL them that, and expect obedience was beyond belief, and Obi-wan didn't correct him about it; and oh, how we KNOW Obi-wan loved correcting Anakin.

Quotes

"We will not go through this exercise again!"

"You will learn your place young one!"

"You will pay attention to my lead!"

OK, he's dealing with an unruly and dangerous child, but still....overkill? Much?

[Nhylus]

Assuming they have somewhere to go! The Order does a pretty descent job of ensuring that is not the case. Attachment is forbidden, outside contact is forbidden, at first, then strictly monitored thereafter.

This idea amuses me greatly! The Jedi would just as soon lop a Sith's head off, as give them shelter!


That's a very Jedi perspective on it really; it's a bit like saying, "Only the guilty, who have something to hide, have a problem with policemen!"

The Jedi are the protectors of the Galaxy. The only Jedi in true SW canon that slayed an enemy when they surrendered or sought redemption was Anakin Skywalker, and what did he turn into? A Sith.
The Jedi give more chances then they should to Sith, because they are better than the Sith. They refuse to step to their level of being merciless.

Look this entire thread has turned into a ridiculous attempt at creating anti-heros. Of making the Sith into good guys or like they have it figured out.
Arkanus, you are finding things good about the Sith and bad about the Jedi because you are trying very very hard to do so.

The Jedi represent the best humanity has to offer. The Sith represent the worst.
Their codes are meant to be polar opposites of human traits.
Selfless vs Selfish
Fearless vs Afraid
Protecting the weak vs destroying them

The list goes on.
Jedi or Sith, choose what you want, but you can never turn either side into something they are not. The Jedi aren't villains and the Sith aren't heroes. You want the gray? You want the in between? You want the anti-heroes? Those are for the rest of the SW universe. Bounty Hunters, Smugglers, Citizens, etc. The Jedi & Sith are the extremes of good and evil.
A Sith is only a hero if he brings redemption from the Dark side to himself.

Darth Vader redeemed himself, but died in the process. Star Wars is the archetype of the Greek Tragedy.
It is Lucas' universe, and in his fantasy, Jedi = good, Sith = evil.