Thoughts on The Rise of Skywalker - SPOILERS

[MavRick]

The pacing was atrocious. I understand the JJ had to effectively undo as much of TLJ as possible and then try to put some semblance of plot together. He was effectively working with a stone around his neck. But this is the garbage you get when you let directors write. Especially directors that don't get their subject matter, and try way too hard to be edgy.

The teleportation through their connection: dumb.
The dagger being inscribed with instruction to find the wayfinder: dumb.
The Goonies ripoff of aligning the thing to find an exact location without proper point of reference: dumb.
The wayfinder: dumb.
Quicksand that empties into a cave: dumb.
SDs with kill lasers: dumb. (although not entirely devoid of merit*)

Per usual the list goes on. I will admit that there were brief high points in this film, and the rate of occurrence was significantly greater than its predecessors, but they were exceptionally short lived.  

* The planet killer fleet is not an original idea, however the original concepts were far better. Basically multiple ships would be able to achieve the ends of the Deathstar.



And then I found this this morning:



My beef with Death Star Destroyers is that they're too small to generate the necessary power to destroy a planet.

Correct on all, and Agreed!!!

[PsychoSith]

The healing power just can't be justified to me. Why couldn't Obi-Wan save Qui-Gon? He was still alive right up until the end of the fight. Obi-Wan wouldn't have died if he did. Why didn't Anakin try healing his mom?

My whole thing is its been an established power in legends for awhile, if the other movies before TRoS didnt use it then I kind of feel like thats more of a problem with those movies rather than TRoS.

I also love how they decided it was appropriate to end the Skywalker saga by killing off all the blood lineage of the Skywalkers and now we just have Rey calling herself a Skywalker. Great writing.
Can't be her own character. This whole trilogy might as well have just been a reboot at this point.

Technically every Skywalker after Anakin is a result of Palpatine impregnating Shmi so where its not a blood relation, the Skywalkers and Palpatines are pretty intermixed.

My beef with Death Star Destroyers is that they're too small to generate the necessary power to destroy a planet.

Alright Logos, point to you for that! I wouldnt have ever thought of that myself. I guess my explanations there is where they might look like Imperial-I's, wookieepedia confirms these are their own class of Destroyer, the Xyston class. They could very well have a much more advance reactor than a standard destroyer. They are at 2km length, making them more on par with a Resurgent in size. Interesting problem however.

*Although in regards to the original concept needing multiple ships for planetary destruction, I'd bring up with Eclipse. To be fair, that ship is much larger however.

[Sakura No Kaze]

Watch this at the 12:46 mark onwards. George Lucas confirms that Anakin was the chosen one and he DID bring balance to the force by DESTROYING himself and Palpatine. If Palpatine lived then balance was NOT achieved and this directly contradicts what the creator of Star Wars confirms in this video.

I accept that what Lucas says is the final word as far as canon goes, at least up until the point in the story where he sold it to someone else. Whatever they come up with from that point in the story on is the final word.

As far as what Lucas says regarding Anakin bringing balance by destroying himself and Palpatine, he's right, but I disagree with him. I think if Vader, Palpatine, AND Luke had all died, then the Force would have been in balance, as no one side, light or Dark, would have held power.

 Rey being the chosen one 2.0 is nothing but bad fanfic that  contradicts pre-established lore.

Not necessarily. Just because Anakin balanced the Force doesn't mean it cannot go back out of balance again. Looking strictly at Snoke and Kylo, without Palpatine in the background, or even still being alive at all, Rey could be chosen one 2.0 to restore the balance that Snoke and Kylo were upsetting. I guess it would be better to phrase it as Rey being the next one chosen to bring balance back to the Force. "Chosen One" is not a unique title that can be used only once, and no one else can ever have it.


I think the biggest problem with "balance" in the Star Wars universe is that light and Dark cannot exist without each other (because if only one exists, the Force is out of balance and tries to correct itself), yet they refuse to exist with each other (because the both try to destroy the other).


All of this is the midi-chlorians' fault. If they just went away none of this would be a problem.

[Saso Is-kor]

Just because Anakin balanced the Force doesn't mean it cannot go back out of balance again. Looking strictly at Snoke and Kylo, without Palpatine in the background, or even still being alive at all, Rey could be chosen one 2.0 to restore the balance that Snoke and Kylo were upsetting. I guess it would be better to phrase it as Rey being the next one chosen to bring balance back to the Force. "Chosen One" is not a unique title that can be used only once, and no one else can ever have it.

As much as I rabidly want to disagree with this, that is a very interesting point. We always did assume that the Chosen One meant a particular person and the prophecy supported that, but I suppose there is room for a wider interpretation. I still think the whole new trilogy still struggles with the issue that the Skywalker story was really supposed to end chronologically after Episode 6, but that's a conversation for another time.

[Anakin Generation]

As soon as Rey kissed Ben just before he passed into The Force, The Force was balanced again, through that act of pure Love. She was Ben's Soulmate all along and knew it, and Luke and Leia's Force Appirations confirmed that she was, when she was on Tatooine when she was asked her last name, replying "Skywalker," Spiritually Married to Ben through The Force.

[PsychoSith]

As much as I rabidly want to disagree with this, that is a very interesting point. We always did assume that the Chosen One meant a particular person and the prophecy supported that, but I suppose there is room for a wider interpretation. I still think the whole new trilogy still struggles with the issue that the Skywalker story was really supposed to end chronologically after Episode 6, but that's a conversation for another time.

This is an idea I've always had floating around but never really toyed with. So we can almost the force acts like an organism here. The Chosen One acting as a sort of "antibody" when the force gets unbalanced. Of course this aaaaaallll ties back to a canon question people have had since the prequels: what does "balance" mean here?

Is "balance" referring to a balance of even light/dark? This seems unlikely since both times we've seen the force "balanced" it involved the light side overtaking the dark. However this is debatable since both of these occasions occurred after a long reign of dark.

The other theory to balance is that it refers to the balance as more of a trapeze wire, the light "balanced" on it to prevent it from falling to the dark. This is certainly closer to the Jedi understanding, but given Luke's dialogue in TLJ "Powerful light, powerful dark." when describing the balance of the force on Ach-To I'm inclined toward the first theory.

[Anakin Generation]

A Balanced Force is like a Balanced mind. A mind that is not chaotic, hurt, or plagued by strife against it. As we know The Force is not just some "thing" you reach into to make things move around in the air or make illusions with, nor is it a feelingless bond that holds us all together. The Force itself can feel pain, The Force can even come in the Form of a Person like it did with Anakin whom came from an immaculate conception (Anakin was actually sinless all of his life, even as Vader, he just knew how to make Force illusions for certain purposes, and use his Lightsaber in the right way by ways of The Force). And any True Jedi can be just as Powerful as Anakin or Rey Skywalker or Shiv Palpatine or Ben Solo Skywalker if they fully make Themselves One with the Force. The Force is Love, and it can be hurt. To Balance it means to heal it.

There is a diffirence between being just a part and parcel of The Force, and being the Complete Whole. If One aspires to become The Complete Whole then they must understand that there is no other path for them, and that their goal is already achieved. That is the goal of a True Jedi, and the reservation The Force has made for all, for all of Eternity.

[Sakura No Kaze]

This is an idea I've always had floating around but never really toyed with. So we can almost the force acts like an organism here. The Chosen One acting as a sort of "antibody" when the force gets unbalanced. Of course this aaaaaallll ties back to a canon question people have had since the prequels: what does "balance" mean here?

Is "balance" referring to a balance of even light/dark? This seems unlikely since both times we've seen the force "balanced" it involved the light side overtaking the dark. However this is debatable since both of these occasions occurred after a long reign of dark.

The other theory to balance is that it refers to the balance as more of a trapeze wire, the light "balanced" on it to prevent it from falling to the dark. This is certainly closer to the Jedi understanding, but given Luke's dialogue in TLJ "Powerful light, powerful dark." when describing the balance of the force on Ach-To I'm inclined toward the first theory.

I think the "balance" difference in the Force relates to which side it's swinging to. Movement to being out of balance towards the Dark side tends to be rather abrupt and sudden, like going from thousands of jedi in the galaxy down to a handful almost overnight. Whereas movement to being out of balance towards the light side tends to be more gradual, like a few thousand years of the jedi "keeping the peace" with only a couple of Sith working in the background for that time.

As much as I rabidly want to disagree with this, that is a very interesting point. We always did assume that the Chosen One meant a particular person and the prophecy supported that, but I suppose there is room for a wider interpretation.

That's ok, I'm about to disagree with myself. Why does Rey have to be a "Chosen One" that's meant to bring balance to the Force? Why can't she just be a "chosen one" that's meant to do what Luke could not, rebuild the jedi order?

I still think the whole new trilogy still struggles with the issue that the Skywalker story was really supposed to end chronologically after Episode 6, but that's a conversation for another time.

Lucas has always said he had Star Wars written out as nine episodes, so I still want to know what his original plan was for the last three.

Watch this at the 12:46 mark onwards. George Lucas confirms that Anakin was the chosen one and he DID bring balance to the force by DESTROYING himself and Palpatine. If Palpatine lived then balance was NOT achieved and this directly contradicts what the creator of Star Wars confirms in this video. I don't care about EU and books. That's the final word as far as I'm concerned.  Rey being the chosen one 2.0 is nothing but bad fanfic that  contradicts pre-established lore.

And another thing... You can not care about the EU and books all you want, the fact remains that all EU materials (prior to the sale to Disney) had to have Lucas's approve of the characters, story, etc. before publication. So like it or not, Lucas did approve the EU story of Palpatine surviving and having to be killed again. You can decide whether or not Lucas saying "yes, I approve this as canon despite the fact that it contradicts what I've said is canon" counts for anything or not. Although it's worth mentioning that the general consensus is that Lucas, while approving the EU materials, didn't always agree with it, and most likely disregarded it when writing Episodes 1-3.

Note also the video was made 7 years before Lucas sold to Disney. Like I said, you get to decide what the story is right up until you sell it to someone else. Then they get to decide what the story is.

Oh, and Lucas says that Darth Vader brings balance to the Force, not Anakin. So technically a Sith was the Chosen One. Which fits in with most versions of the prophecy I can find, which basically say that someone, not necessarily a jedi, will bring balance to the Force.

[Saso Is-kor]

And another thing... You can not care about the EU and books all you want, the fact remains that all EU materials (prior to the sale to Disney) had to have Lucas's approve of the characters, story, etc. before publication. So like it or not, Lucas did approve the EU story of Palpatine surviving and having to be killed again. You can decide whether or not Lucas saying "yes, I approve this as canon despite the fact that it contradicts what I've said is canon" counts for anything or not. Although it's worth mentioning that the general consensus is that Lucas, while approving the EU materials, didn't always agree with it, and most likely disregarded it when writing Episodes 1-3.

Almost makes you wonder if Lucas had already conceived of "Canon" and "Legends" in his mind long before that became a point of contention with his franchise. That he probably knew that the legions of books and other material created wouldn't exactly fit into his original story but was willing to let them exist just to keep Star Wars active in the hiatus between cinematic movies. Ugh, no other franchise has these kind of issues, I feel like most of the time we're trying to dissect Lucas' brain as to the real answers in Star Wars. Maybe there does come a time when we realize that we're taking it all far too seriously, but it sure is fun to talk about.

[Cyclops942]

Almost makes you wonder if Lucas had already conceived of "Canon" and "Legends" in his mind long before that became a point of contention with his franchise. That he probably knew that the legions of books and other material created wouldn't exactly fit into his original story but was willing to let them exist just to keep Star Wars active in the hiatus between cinematic movies. Ugh, no other franchise has these kind of issues, I feel like most of the time we're trying to dissect Lucas' brain as to the real answers in Star Wars. Maybe there does come a time when we realize that we're taking it all far too seriously, but it sure is fun to talk about.

Ummm... excuse me?  Either I don’t understand what’s going on here (entirely possible), or you’re forgetting about the Harry Potter franchise, where what’s appearing in the Fantastic Beasts movies (with the screenplays being written by JKR herself) directly contradict what has been written (again, by JKR herself) in the original seven novels and on Pottermore (again, by JKR herself, not the staff of folks currently writing for WizardingWorld).

Sorry, I’ll shut up now, and let this thread stay on topic.  Nobody, including me, wants to take this thread into a discussion of contradictions in the Potterverse.

[GeddaTheHutt]

I saw The Rise of Skywalker today. It is in my opinion the best movie in this trilogy and a fitting end to the Skywalker Saga.

[Saso Is-kor]

Ummm... excuse me?  Either I don’t understand what’s going on here (entirely possible), or you’re forgetting about the Harry Potter franchise, where what’s appearing in the Fantastic Beasts movies (with the screenplays being written by JKR herself) directly contradict what has been written (again, by JKR herself) in the original seven novels and on Pottermore (again, by JKR herself, not the staff of folks currently writing for WizardingWorld).

Sorry, I’ll shut up now, and let this thread stay on topic.  Nobody, including me, wants to take this thread into a discussion of contradictions in the Potterverse.

I guess that's possible, I have practically zero exposure to anything Potter other than a couple movies. But still it can't be anything close to the dump trucks worth of material that exists in Star Wars, 40+ years of a franchise cranking out material tends to do that.

[Darth Logos]

I also love how they decided it was appropriate to end the Skywalker saga by killing off all the blood lineage of the Skywalkers and now we just have Rey calling herself a Skywalker. Great writing.
Can't be her own character. This whole trilogy might as well have just been a reboot at this point.

Worse still, though very artsy, the saga ends where it began: Tatooine. Which...destroyed my theory that the reason why the sequels were doing so abysmally was because no Tatooine.

Technically every Skywalker after Anakin is a result of Palpatine impregnating Shmi so where its not a blood relation, the Skywalkers and Palpatines are pretty intermixed.

TECHNICALLY technically Anakin was the result of the experiment of Plagueis and Sidious. But using that same idiot logic of bloodlines determining Force alignment, both Luke and Leia were dark side, so the Force was never brought to balance since Anakin himself was brought about through the dark side.

I can't believe I'm saying this, but on the whole, TFA was actually better as a movie than this was. It is making more and more sense why the Mandalorian, R1, and Solo were all better than the sequels: the Disney regime has no #$%&ing clue how the Force works. Think about it.

Rogue 1: mild use of Force from Vader and limited fringe use in Chirrut, but not the focus.
Solo: No use of the Force until Maul grabs the saber.
Mandalorian: Baby Yoda, yes, but it's limited and mostly rudimentary, but also...not the focus.

The sequels wasted way too much effort trying to be edgy with new Force abilities.

*Although in regards to the original concept needing multiple ships for planetary destruction, I'd bring up with Eclipse. To be fair, that ship is much larger however.

Technically the Eclipse was an SSD, and although had a significantly larger reactor, I still think it would lack the power required to take out an entire planet.

[PsychoSith]

I can't believe I'm saying this, but on the whole, TFA was actually better as a movie than this was. It is making more and more sense why the Mandalorian, R1, and Solo were all better than the sequels: the Disney regime has no #$%&ing clue how the Force works. Think about it.

Rogue 1: mild use of Force from Vader and limited fringe use in Chirrut, but not the focus.
Solo: No use of the Force until Maul grabs the saber.
Mandalorian: Baby Yoda, yes, but it's limited and mostly rudimentary, but also...not the focus.

The sequels wasted way too much effort trying to be edgy with new Force abilities.
Technically the Eclipse was an SSD, and although had a significantly larger reactor, I still think it would lack the power required to take out an entire planet.

I guess I've always been a touch flexible with depictions of the force. It seems between old canon, the EU, new canon, and movies, books, shows etc. the force just often is what it is. So when the movies want to "wow" me with new powers I dont mind as much.

And point taken with the eclipse. At the end of the day I chalk up the new planet busters ability to 20 years of technological improvement, and the fact the beam is a sustained pulse that lasts a few seconds vs the Death Star's "one and done" blast.

[ed_ification]

I wanted this to be better than I thought it was.

I actively avoided spoilers and trailers.  Didn't want to know what was coming as much as I could.  So I could be surprised.  And I was - but not in a majority of good ways.

So, I liked TFA, as I thought it got back to what made Star Wars good.  Yes, a great deal of it was fanservicey, but I was open to it, as it seemed positive overall.  TLJ took risks and challenged the viewers expectations - and I was OK with that, too.  I liked Rose and the new ideas introduced.  I realize TLJ wasn't for everyone, but I don't think it was as bad as its harshest critics would say either.  I am a fan of inclusion, and the new trilogy HAS done that.

The Good:

1.  Denis Lawson back as Wedge.  HECK YES!  Cameo, but again, awesome.
2.  Lando's entrance.
3.  Han and Ben.
4.  Poe realizing that he's unready, and learning from the events of TLJ.
5.  The set design of Exogal.  It was ominous, and reminded me a lot of the designs of Korriban that are seen in Jedi Academy and KOTOR.
6.  Threepio sacrificing himself and the Red-Eyed resurrection - I wondered if we were getting a hint of 000 there, and I could see how a Protocol droid might be terrifying in the right circumstances.
7.  Rey and Leia.
8.  Background kiss of LGBTQ characters - fast, but on screen.
9.  Warwick Davis back as Wicket, with his son playing Wicket's son.

The Bad:

1.  Ben's redemption - one good act does not undo a lifetime of atrocity.  I wanted Kylo to go down like the whiny neo-Nazi analogue he was, NOT get a redemption arc. 
2.  Rey somehow loving him/kissing him was vomitous - he intruded into her mind, violating her repeatedly across the trilogy, and yet she's somehow OK with it because he's "a good person deep down".  I might have accepted her forgiving him, but that was too much.
3.  Sidelining Rose - the official explanation that Rose was being used as an anchor for new characters to Leia and that the scenes were cut doesn't help.  Essentially, Rose helped Finn in TLJ realize that fighting the First Order was more than just one person.  Making her be "Leia's anchor" just removes her agency as a character.  Also, Finn immediately seeming to be connecting with Jannah undermines a lot of TLJ.
4.  Palpatine as the villain - much like Star Trek:  Nemesis, TROS seems to draw from elements of a more successful predecessor (Wrath of Khan in the case of Nemesis, RotJ in the case of TROS).  We didn't need Palpatine back as a villain.  We needed to move on.  Let him be dead - the First Order would have been great as a villainous group to rally against.
5.  No reaction at Kajimi getting exploded - Poe gives us no reaction to this planet (upon which he apparently spent some time) getting blown up.
6.  Zorii Bliss - what was the POINT of this character?
7.  So many opening scenes with no apparent explanation of what is going on.
8.  The ending - So, the Final Order fleet was destroyed, but the First Order base would still exist.  Much like with RotJ, there's still a remnant out there, that was powerful enough to build a giant planetkiller weapon, and kidnapped a bunch of kids, and probably has a bunch of systems under its control...
9.  No explanation of how much time has elapsed between TLJ and TROS.

I'm sorry to say that it didn't live up for me.  I wanted to like it more, but unfortunately, I think that Abrams compromised too much.  He was an EP on TLJ, and if it wasn't doing what he wanted, he could have exercised that control.  Rian Johnson gave us a solid film, and Abrams chose to backpedal rather than embrace TLJ and build on it.