Saber Forum

I'm working on designing in universe sets of armor for dueling. Basically this will cover any area that can be seriously injured in saber combat... I.E. Just about everything.

Some features they will have

1. They will look like something Jedi/Sith would wear... There will be generic designs for Jedi and Sith.

2. They will be tested rigorously to withstand full contact dueling. If they look cool that's great... if they protect your brain, that's even better.

I posted something about this in another thread and no one seemed to be very interested, so I'm seeing if maybe it gets more attention here.

I'm testing a few different materials for use, if anyone has any suggestions for other materials to use then I would welcome it...

I will also post videos here if people are interested in seeing what happens with what we test.... However I will not do that until we have a working prototype set of armor that is ready to go.

If I were a Jedi i'd wear armor. Just something nice about an armored Jedi. Lucien if you can make affordable as well It would be a big bonus. Cannot wait to see what you come up with.

If either style of set ends out looking along the lines of Stormtrooper, Scout Trooper, or Clone Armor of any type.... I'll start saving up money to purchase at least a partial set. And I know another guy who'd probably want one as well! This would be a GREAT thing to have available!

One of my big points is to make this affordable... I plan to use it for my dueling club so my kids can spar each other without fear of injuries.

That being said, I am fabricating them by hand from scratch, so they may be a little expensive... That being said, I will make it so that they can be bought as a partial set so people can save up their money and eventually compile a full set.

Manroon, I have my own design drawn up and ready to go... I'm not sure exactly what the Jedi and Sith models are going to look like, but they will likely have a plated armor type feel to them... Think Cade Skywalker's armor... Not exactly that, but something similar... This will keep cost down and theoretically make for a pretty strong armor design.

That being said... I may accept custom designs, but that will cost extra...

I can't say anything for certain because I'm still in design stages, next month I am planning to move to fabrication and testing stages. Which will be the real fun part... If not a little painful. All I am waiting on right now is for the VA to pay me so I can go get the materials I need.

Mind you, I am what is considered a "professional", I've done martial arts for most of my life, and I have done a lot of testing type stuff in the Marine Corps... I have been taking punches and blows for many years. I do not recommend or endorse people going out and taking their sabers to homemade armor. I will be doing this in a controlled environment with someone I trust fully.

So I repeat I don't recommend going out making a set of armor out of cardboard and then taking a saber to it.... So whatever videos I post, I strongly urge people not to try and replicate any of the tests I'll be doing.

I really think as much as the saber world is picking up the need for mission specific gear is becoming more and more essential. We are not fencers though some of us fence, and we are not Kendo practitioners though some of us to Kendo. We are using an entirely different weapon in an entirely different manner, and that merits it's own protective equipment.

This makes me feel like you're starting a business...Interesting...

I look forward to seeing this!

The partial sets option is going to be cool. I didn't expect this to be too cheap, from the prices I've seen on other safety gear, and I know that with the sparring my friend and I do, there are certain areas we each tend to attack which we'll want to protect first, and certain areas we never go for which we may wish to leave open for maneuvering advantages.

*googles cade* I think I could get down with armor like that! A little paint, a little use, and it'll be both believable and unique. Good style to be similar to, Lucien! I like it, though I still love the classic look of some 'liberated' stormie plastic, the style you mention has something of a more hardcore look to it. Very BA!

Be interesting to see what material you end out using as well. Wish I could help more with that, but I know little about these things myself.

I'm looking into using a high impact ABS plastic. I've been told that the more you bend or form them the more durability you lose, which is why I'm looking into the plated style of armor, that will have a minimum amount of bends and help keep costs and injuries down.. So vacuum forming sintra or ABS plastic is kind of counter intuitive because it makes the thickness of the material next to none. So far the helmet is going to be the big trick. I'm planning a polycarb visor that will not come out or budge if you take a stab to the face. Once again a lot of this is touch and go, and I could find out that the plastic is absolutely worthless for taking a hit.

This isn't the only material we're looking into, but it will be about the cheapest, and the easiest to work with.


Hmm... I dunno, there are a lot of things on the table right now, so I won't discredit anything. That being said whatever me and my friend do will probably not be publicized here out of respect to ultrasabers!

but the armor is something I think should be offered to all duelists, and kind of a neat "hopefully cheaper" alternative to using other safety gear that isn't intended for dueling.

I will say this, I will get Ultra's permission before actually offering anything on this site. The saberforum is for the discussion of ultrasabers products, and I don't want to take away from that. I'm honestly kicking myself for not PM'ing him before posting this thread, but I'm excited about making it, and I'm wondering if anyone else would even want to use it.

 

I don't duel very hard with my friends and I want it just to look Snazzy ;D

and my philosophy is why not both lol

I'd be interested in seeing the designs as well.

Once I get a working prototype, I'll be happy to post most of my sketches and initial designs. I just don't want to jump the gun while in design when a lot of things are going to change once we actually start building... Best plans laid to waste and all that nonsense, but I promise to share my creative process once we have a suit that will take the beating I want it to take. Which is quite a beating, the videos for this should be fun to do as well.

I honestly think this is a cool idea and wish to see whatever designs you create.

Sounds like a cool idea to me too. If yo do get this off the ground, I'll be interested in some, though mostly for costume purposes.

I recommend HDPE over ABS plastic.  ABS can have toxic outgassing at temperatures used for softening and manipulating; HDPE doesn't.

This sounds like an awesome idea! I would definitely be looking for something like this for both costume and dueling purposes in the future. :)

This is really good information to know. My workshop is will ventelated, so I'm not worried about it for me... but this is good so I don't try and do any of the small parts at home around my child... That would be bad.

HDPE... I'll have to look into it, Thanks Jenny, this is the type of information I'm looking for... Eliminating as much of the guesswork as possible.

What can I say?  Hang around with the SCA armor crowd for a while, and you pick up information whether you want it or not. ;)

Seriously, check out Armor Archive.  Even if you're not doing historically styled armor, you'll pick up good info.

Definitely... armor is armor... some of the historically accurate armor is really good for reference because some of them had really articulate armor I.E. They could still get on and off a horse, and it still covered their entire body. So I will definitely be taking your advice and checking this out.

Most of your impact damage is going to come from a tight slap...so malleable plastic is great but will do little to belay the energy...it other words it is still going to hurt, maybe not bruise but still hurt.

An absorbing element is what I would look to.

Traditional martial arts tends to direct soft vs hard and hard vs soft...meaning that if you block a hard strike with bone you are more likely to be injured.

The sabers are a hard element with the focused slap...so I would consider something like these floor tiles

(http://garagestud.com/images/uploads/Primary%20Reversible%20Fanned%20Out.jpg)

Inexpensive, easy to manipulate, and lightweight.

If you still wanted to add plastic elements then then energy would be refracted and absorbed by the combination of foam and plastic.  Plus you would only need smaller pieces of plastic.

Good luck and success with your project!

Why you gotta spoil the surprise...

Funny you should mention that because it's in the design. The cool thing about it is if you do things right you will only need minimal foam padding... the important part is to put the foam in the right places. The helmet will definitely have internal padding... That's how helmets work, but the rest of the armor will likely have padding as well.

Thanks for ruining my fun lol  ;D seriously though good call. I already have the foam ready to go.

I like to think of it as less ruining your plans and more of common inspiration  :)

Lol great minds and what not.

Starting to really rethink the use of ABS for this... I was talking to my father-in-law last night, he is a contractor, and highly knowledgeable about such things, and he was saying that ABS won't hold up to the stress we'd be putting it through, he actually said PVC would be better to work with, not to mention cheaper. So this is another option we're looking into, the next time I make it out to our plastics provider I'll ask for some samples of different materials to test. We'll cover our bases so we aren't making like 12 prototype sets of armor and destroying everyone of them. I gotta say though PVC is looking like the best bet... I was looking at a bicycle helmet made from PVC... and I've tried to break that thing, it didn't happen... So I'm thinking that foam reinforced PVC is probably going to be our best bet, and it won't become brittle once we heat form it so that's a huge plus.

Just a small update.

My friend you have overlooked one of the easiest to fabricate with, most durable, and least expensive (considering tools, equipment, supplies) materials out there...fiberglass.

Short learning curve to match your areas' humidity with a touch of wax and balance of catalyst.

For piece armor you can layer as much or little glass mat as you like.

It will take quite a beating...you can sand, drill, paint, etc...

Super easy to repair if ever the need came up.

Just a thought.

i love those robes the jedi wear so if you could make  robes with armor under it i would buy it right away.

I'm working on learning how to sew... but honestly it's on the back burner... Maybe I'll talk with one of the costume designers I know to help me out... That will raise the price by at least another 200 bucks though... At least I'd imagine it would.

Get a basic model sewing machine, $100-125...here is a basic from Mal-Wart $80

(http://g-ecx.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/Brother/XL2600iElement1._V155956725_.jpg)
http://www.walmart.com/ip/Brother-2600I-Free-Sewing-Machine/4764723 (http://www.walmart.com/ip/Brother-2600I-Free-Sewing-Machine/4764723)

Follow directions for loading thread...it is all pictures...start sewing.

When you start or stop reverse an inch or so to lock the thread lines.

And invest in a decent pair of scissors, a seam ripper, and if you want to take the plunge a pair of pinking shears

(http://www.cadcutlery.com/fiskars/original.jpg)
(http://saten.com.ba/images/Paralica.JPG)
(http://www.widgetsupply.com/fiskars/9445.jpg)

A decent pair of scissors...mid range when you go to store...cheap scissors stay sharp until you take them out of the package.

Seam rippers are a few bucks...take a sewn seam and hold it tight, place point in between and slowing run along seam, it is easy to use and once you use it you will find you can not do without one.

Pinking shears cut a pinking edge or a partial saw tooth which prevents fraying, unraveling, or other wise unusual cloth from doing what it wants to do.

*****'

Grab some remnants of cloth for a couple bucks, a cheap pillow for a couple bucks, and make some decorative pillows.

Cut a shape, say a square, with an extra 4-5" more than you want the pillow to end up (this allows for filling and width), so you want an 18" pillow then cut the squares (x2) 20-22" depending on how thick you want it to be, place outside facing sides together, sew along one edge (leave needle down so you can turn it without loosing your position), sew next edge (same needle trick), sew third edge (same needle trick), then sew half way along fourth edge, stop and cut threads, put hand in hole, grab far edge, pull through, now it is right side out, stuff with pillow fluff, fold cut edge of fourth remaining half, start sewing one inch before thread cut, sew it closed, reverse at end back one inch to seal the threads.

Once you make a successful pillow your confidence will be boundless.

Enjoy.

That is the break down from the basic sewing pillow project I teach...$25 + materials  :)

 Nice! My wife has a really nice sewing machine... provided her little sister hasn't wrecked it. Probably needs new needles. I have a couple of ladies around here who can teach me, I just haven't gotten around to it yet... I'm learning to build lightsabers and blasters and vibroaxes and all sorts of things. So I'm on overload right now lol

holy crap 200 dollars for just the robe. there would be no way i could get that. my mom wouldnt let me get 200 dollars worth of sewn fabric.

The costume maker I know is pretty affordable, I'm just saying, this would be custom robes to go with these armor sets... If I end up making the robes to go with them it will likely be much cheaper... But this is a lot of custom fabrication to begin with... I'm basically designing this all myself, but trust me affordability is going to be paramount second only to durability.

Someone wake me up, this feels like a dream.
(http://i299.photobucket.com/albums/mm294/xx_clauu/emoticons/2caf38603154a3ed84fc255a1d07fe07.gif)

I would be very interested in this, it is something that I have been pondering as well....I'm into medieval reenactment fighting, not the pretty stuff, more of the b@ll$ and all type, and I collect wearable, functional armour as well.  I have used formed ABS plastic years ago, and I did find that with a layer of 1/4 foam glued directly underneath that plates, it did absorb a lot of the blows.  However, it does create a hell of a stink as has been mentioned, you don't want to be breathing it in too much.  This was using SCA rattan weapons, wielded with Sithy fury:P
I am looking forward to seeing your progress with devising kata as well...I am no martial artist, in the asian-based variety, but I train in a wide variety of styles, ranging from medieval combat to Filipino stick fighting, so seeing the work you are putting into saber wielding as a formal style is inspiring me to train harder and get my trainer, who is a long-time martial artist, to help me with them.  I have tried kata in the past...I suck at it:P  But this...this I feel a kinship with and inspiration for.  This is what I ma loving about this hobby...it's actually practical, we can take something from the realms of make believe, and make it real, hard, and challenging.
PS...If you ever do come to Australia, you don't have to duel for the spare bed...if you help me with technique, you most welcome to stay hehe!

lol Thanks! I have been slacking off, on getting the sequences done, but I will get back on it soon. ABS worked huh?
That is good to know, what were you using on it? and how hard were you hitting the ABS?

I may take you up on that offer someday.

I am female, so we heat formed a 4 piece breast and back plate by pressing the hot, malleable ABS plastic over a hockey breast protector plate, and cutting tucks where the ABS folded over itself, like tucks in sewing.  We then glued 1/4 inch close cell foam on the inside of it to absorb shock, and it worked a treat...I took blows that knocked the wind from my lungs, but it never truly felt painful.  For my limbs, I used 12-14 ounce leather with splints of ABS riveted to the inside of the plates and the foam glued to the splints, again it work really well.  We were using SCA rattan weapons at the time...I think they were 1-1/4 thick, and very solid.  And we played rough:)  Now, when I duel with foam, carbon fibre core weapons...I don't use ABS or padding at the moment, and believe me...I have the battle scars to prove it lol!
I favour the hard outer plate armour with foam or padded gambeson/vest etc underneath for good solid protection.  The hard outer protects against possible skin splits (although...saber dueling scars, I could live with that:P) and the padding dissipates the blunt force trauma.  I like leather with the ABS plates and splints for looks as well, you can do really nice paint/dye colours and patterns on the two materials, and the leather is comfy and will form to the body a little.  Leather base..ABS plates and rivets = struttin', stylin, Sith:)  And maybe Jedi too....grumble... Also, ifyou get into wet forming and hardening leather...then you have some very durable, versatile material.

Wet forming leather is such a cool process... I need to learn, I just have no teacher lol. So this is really good information to know.

I guess I'm going to have to rope my wife into being my female model for the set of armor for the ladies... I keep forgetting I need to make a set that's friendly for those with breasts. Hmm so that's 4 sets of armor I need to make off the bat... Hmm, guess I better get cracking.... Now where am I going to find a lady willing to test the armor for us... Skiorh, come to America and spar with me so you can test my armor out lol

Oohh..If I could....I soooo would.  Any excuse to get all dressed up and play:P  You don't exactly need "boobies" on the breastplates, but we do need a little room to tuck 'em away.  A slightly extended pec region works well I have found.  I don't usually favour the breasty look myself, but the one breastplate that I have with molded cups is soooo comfortable, and supportive:)

Wet forming leather is easy with the right leather.  Veg tanned leather will release the tanning agent when made wet, creating an almost clay like quality. Once dry it holds that shape...just avoid rain.

Best to seal the leather with water beading agents such as dry wax.

I was thining about something that looks kind of like Shae Vizla from TOR

(http://gabaonfox.files.wordpress.com/2011/03/the-old-republic-shae-vizla.jpg)

Jedi Relmeob, that is good to know, you have some useful knowledge sir.

Spent the last 46yrs filling my head with various service skills and working my hands with many different disciplines...my brain works 24/7, gotta take meds to get any sleep...so I am always emptying the cup and filling it back up with something new.

I found out about leather when I was making Venetian style masquerade /carnivale masks.  I took a job to make a dozen before I ever made one...had to learn quick  lol.

The leather is easy to work with.

I've seen some amazing works of art with molded leather. I need to try this at some point.

I found a decent vlog of a mask maker...the process is the same for armor bits

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W0orAbK0b8Y# (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W0orAbK0b8Y#)

oh ok 200 dollars for a robe and armor would be fine i guess i miss understood. still looking forward to seeing this done

I got a leather guy, but he has a strange way of softening the leather.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HrwDFgEeFCE# (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HrwDFgEeFCE#)

It rubs the lotion on it's skin....or it gets smacked by the saber again!!

That looks a lot like my local leather vendor... All this time I thought he was using cows.... lol

one of the local SCA guys i used to know did waxed leather stuff was amazing strong and one boiled in wax could take a hit full strength and it would lessen the blow by 60-80%

Lucien, would you be able to make custom orders once you get this started?

 Id like something like this
(http://[url=http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-fOYv-a_DZ-A/TbiJbL7bVHI/AAAAAAAASNk/dOrVclFscjg/s400/SW_Statue_ObiWanCloneArmor.jpg]http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-fOYv-a_DZ-A/TbiJbL7bVHI/AAAAAAAASNk/dOrVclFscjg/s400/SW_Statue_ObiWanCloneArmor.jpg[/url])

Sorry i couldnt seem to get the picture to post

(http://[url=http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-fOYv-a_DZ-A/TbiJbL7bVHI/AAAAAAAASNk/dOrVclFscjg/s400/SW_Statue_ObiWanCloneArmor.jpg]http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-fOYv-a_DZ-A/TbiJbL7bVHI/AAAAAAAASNk/dOrVclFscjg/s400/SW_Statue_ObiWanCloneArmor.jpg[/url])

(http://) (http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-fOYv-a_DZ-A/TbiJbL7bVHI/AAAAAAAASNk/dOrVclFscjg/s400/SW_Statue_ObiWanCloneArmor.jpg)

click on this one please Lucien

Still can't see the picture, but we may or may not take custom orders... it depends on how much of a pain it is. The custom orders will cost more though. Send me a pm of your picture and I'll take a look at it.

its obi in clone armor and cloak attachments

Whoa...that signature is huge lol!

haha yah a 1st run i need to revamp a lil cause the text will be too small otherwise

Compensating for a smaller saber lol?

lol already reduced the size lol and no lol US sabers are huge haha i prefer a smaller one handed saber for combat..

must...control...nasty lewd..images form flooding brain.....urghh!  Tha Dark Side is of no help here:P

lol the innuendos are strong with this forum today.

(http://images.memegenerator.net/instances/400x/8425912.jpg)

Yep...the Sith's housework is done, slaves disciplined, and now I have time on my hands:)  And you know what they say about idle hands and the Dark Side's work...

lol nothing a good lightsaber duel couldn't cure.

ooh we gonna make sith sushi?

Hmmmm

adds squid ink to rice...making it black gohan...Sith sushi rice (trick to making long grain rice "sticky", add a bit more water to start with and do not add salt during cooking as it toughens the grains)...when cooling add rice vinegar and salt

(http://www2.worldpub.net/images/saveurmag/626-13_black_squid_paella_300.jpg)


adds aka miso to maguro...red Sith protein...although gochujang would be more corrupt

(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_c8XLOfBcJk4/S8buU4_NnsI/AAAAAAAADrA/AC7jHZv00hg/s320/-gochujang-L-1.jpeg)
(http://www.tangmeister.com/080819_sushi_wave/01_Tuna.jpg)


maybe some hijiki and kinshi tamago

(http://www.youlinchng.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/12/hijiki1-300x255.jpg)
(http://www.foodbuzz.com/photos/0090/3749/Making_Kinshi_Tamago__Shredded_Egg_Crepes__TN.jpg?1265141311)


Wrap in reverse with black rice outside, tuna, red garlic sauce, seaweed, and egg inside

(like the middle lower roll)

(http://s3-media1.ak.yelpcdn.com/bphoto/ADD9vQfAHZZ3KUQuA533VA/l.jpg)


As a side dish I would use natto...if there ever was a product corrupted by the dark side it would be natto

(http://www.sakura-hostel.co.jp/blog/natto%201.jpg)

The japanese eat some foul Schtuff

Ah yeah, but to be fair we Americans have some odd taste buds ourselves

How about boiled animal bones and hide, colored with garishly colored chemicals, sometimes served with fruit? (me? Love it!)
(http://www.sophistimom.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/01/jello1.jpg)

Dried ground corn, treated with lye, then boiled...with cheese, butter, syrup, or sugar? (me? Love it!)
(http://a6.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/s320x320/183461_192552840765550_134299183257583_548053_2324443_n.jpg)

Curly salty corn chips, chili (with or without beans), processed cheese sauce, green or white onion if you are fancy? (hmmm I could take or leave this one...I use higher quality products but could follow a theme)
(http://lh5.ggpht.com/_zTCbpIKK2Ss/TUdqjn7zsdI/AAAAAAAABkQ/tkjp8FpLgW8/fritopiesteps1.jpg)

Chop off a young pigs foot, steam it, then pickle it? (oh no no no)
(http://thumbs.ifood.tv/files/images/food/pickled-pigs-feet-01.jpg)

Bits of pieces of cooked pork including some of the offal bits (liver/kidneys/etc.), garlic, onion, salt/pepper, flour/corn meal made into a thick mush then allowed to set...then cut and fried? (not gross but sooo salty and livery)
(http://newyork.seriouseats.com/images/20090510scrapple.jpg)


As a final WTFood...I offer this, and no I am not on board for any of the below...e'
freakin gads
(http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/guardian/Pix/pictures/2011/7/1/1309505840315/-San-Diego-County-Fair-in-002.jpg)

Um yah not sooo much

Back on topic...any updates to the DIY armor project?  Pics perhaps?

Right now I'm tied up on a project for a gentleman at my church... As soon as I am done with that we will have the credits to get the materials we need.

So Then I will post pictures. I'm thinking about getting a sheet of PVC and a sheet of Sintra, and testing them both.

Sintra is great to shape with a heatgun and you can put PVC in the oven and back it till its pliable. I have made armor outta PVC before. Impact durablility is so so you need to reinforce all the strapping with metal. but it still breaks.
I would build it outta of PVC for the shapes and then cast out of Carbon fiber or fiberglass or a combo there of.

Good to know... We may just throw everyone off and do this out of another material we're researching lol.

Boiled waxxed Leather for the win Wonderful against Impact attack :)

http://www.dagorhir.com/HowTo/cbgryml.htm (http://www.dagorhir.com/HowTo/cbgryml.htm)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k48sxW5U6pE# (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k48sxW5U6pE#)

So the guy i knew who did this used a large serving kitchen boiler to get breatplate and thigh peices and what not.
The leather is worked to shape with water and let dry, painted with water soluable paints ( colors will darken so true whites are tough)
then when shaped and ready they are boiled in wax..

AMAZING IMPACT RESISTANCE

That a was an informative video, though about as exciting as watching glue dry


ah ah wait for it...hmmm   ::)

just to show the simple process,  Pvc maybe cheaper but may have to replace more often, the leather will last years easy

Leather would be sexy for sure.

i like the fact you can paint it and then wax/boil it, IE black for sith or pale colors jedi.
Plus all the leather dyes available.

I'm considering doing some fiberglass work once I get going, possibly combined with leather. I'm also toying with the idea of a Vadereqsque cape with metal chain. Niassa isn't exactly your average Jedi, though I am making a set of robes anyway.

chain cape or cape with chain accents?
Even aluim chainmail can get weighty..

Always hated wearing chainmail...its a beast to fight in

Have some new materials to test out that look pretty promising. Maybe getting some of that to work with soon to.

Neither - Vader's cape is held on by a chain accent. It's actually not held by it, but still, it's made to look that way and it looks killer. :)

Small update, we got a small sample of mystery material to work with... So I should have something to show within a few weeks.

Awesome! Really looking forward to seeing it.