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Author Topic: Epic Debate Battles of Geek History!  (Read 9828 times)
TheHobbitofDune
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Force Alignment: 473
Posts: 6097


« Reply #15 on: April 18, 2014, 01:44:00 AM »

I do not wish to drag this out any further as we have strayed far enough from the topic at hand, which is the actual debate. However, I must refute your claim with this: http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Chosen_One

In it, Anakin is described as being the Chosen One. Not only that, but the entry also states what the prophecy actually entailed; that the Chosen One was destined to bring balance to the Force by ridding it of the corruption that is the dark side. And going back to Return of The Jedi, it was in fact Anakin (as Vader) who brought an end to Sidious, and he returned to the light side in doing so, before finally dying himself. But Luke still remained, and the Sith were eradicated, thus balance had been restored to the Force. This was all, once again, Anakin's doing, not Luke's. Now although Luke did play a key role in bringing about this conclusion, the fact still remains that it was Anakin who finished the job and fulfilled the prophecy. Not Luke.

So with those facts in mind, the debate shall stay in it's current format... Neo vs. Anakin... Chosen One vs. Chosen One

If you do not agree with this, then that is fine. Just be patient and hope that the next debate will be more to your liking. Thank you.
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TheHobbitofDune
Knight Commander
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Force Alignment: 473
Posts: 6097


« Reply #16 on: April 24, 2014, 10:15:04 AM »

Man, this thread is an epic fail.
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Master Rel
Game Master
Knight of the Consular Order
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OVER 9000!!
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Force Alignment: 1884
Posts: 12894


Martial artist, fabricator, chef, resident Ortolan


« Reply #17 on: April 24, 2014, 01:04:54 PM »

I will take a shot at the debate topic.


Topic : Which polarizing path of Force usage is best, following the zen like approach of the Jedi (through any and all of the various incarnations throughout canon and EU) or the personal goal approach of the sith?


***** Note...this is a potentially aggressively fought topic, so remember...use your time on the podium to express the strengths of your argument without using the assumed negatives of the other side of the debate...in other words make your points on the merits of their values alone and not by degrading the shortcomings of the other *****


Another consideration...let us let the topic run for a day before we start the debate.  This way we can have time to let others see the topic, present their intent to step up, and let each side pick their representative rather than the first person who sees the topic and steps up.

I will stay out of the debate because I offered the topic and have been in this debate a bunch of times...I will let another represent.

Cheesy
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Light side points please Smiley

Xaeyon
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Force Alignment: 129
Posts: 1476


読めるなら、連絡ください


« Reply #18 on: April 25, 2014, 09:27:47 AM »

"Best" to what end? Personal or communal aspects of enlightenment, defence, happiness, fulfilment?
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Master Rel
Game Master
Knight of the Consular Order
Knight Commander
OVER 9000!!
******

Force Alignment: 1884
Posts: 12894


Martial artist, fabricator, chef, resident Ortolan


« Reply #19 on: April 25, 2014, 12:58:31 PM »

"Best" to what end? Personal or communal aspects of enlightenment, defence, happiness, fulfilment?

If you do not have a firm opinion on topic then I am thinking you are not the chosen one to debate the subject lol Smiley
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Light side points please Smiley

gebhac
Knight Ensign
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Force Alignment: 18
Posts: 157



« Reply #20 on: August 30, 2014, 03:01:53 AM »

Hmm... an interesting old thread.. I love debates Smiley

Master Rel presents an interesting question as to which is best.  At the risk of breaking the topic question and this is in my firm belief as well, the answer is neither.  Both polarizing paths lead to the same result: self-destruction. 

The easy part of the argument is the increasingly corruptive and degenerative effect of using the dark side.  As one relies on the dark side more and more, that person relinquishes their innate humanity for the sake of personal goals and power.  Negative emotions ie Anger, Hatred, Fear, etc are paths to power in the dark side.  In order to continue down that path those negative emotions need to be continually generated. By corrupting oneself into hating everyone or specific subset of a population, that negative emotion can generated constantly.  For example, Darth Maul hated Jedi for whatever reason and drew his strength from that hate.  So long as he can continue to tell himself to hate them, he can grow stronger in the dark side.  The self-destruction part lies in the person's attachment to the negative emotions.  They can't let go because they are so much a part of the person that the person cannot and does not know what to do without those emotions.  Eventually the negative emotions overpower the dark sider's psyche and there is nothing left to contain the power.  The dark sider explodes.

The hard part of the argument is the light side.  We've all read and seen that light almost always overcomes the darkness, whether immediately or eventually.  But we've never been shown nor given an example where the light side is taken to such an extreme that is also self-destructive.  The closest example I can think of comes from Knights of the Old Republic(KOTOR).  Revan and Malak, in their light side personas, see countless worlds falling to the Mandalorians and the Jedi Council does nothing but observe.  Another example is the slavery seen in The Phantom Menace, notably Anakin, his mother, and most of his friends.  Qui-gon knows slavery outside of the Republic is wrong but can do nothing about it.  Yes he is only one Jedi, but it appears to be stance taken by the Order as a whole.  One could argue that they have ignored the negative emotional response in favor of keeping a peaceful status quo.  I think that can be likened as apathy to an extent since the overall effect is more suffering.  If you need more evidence, look to the Clones.

I would like to take a moment to explain that Jedi Order in KOTOR is vastly different than seen in the Prequel Trilogy.  The Order was far more autonomous and did not answer to the Senate but it did still serve the Republic in many of the same ways.

There is no emotion, there is peace.
There is no ignorance,  there is knowledge.
There is no passion, there is serenity.
There is no chaos, there is harmony.
There is no death, there is the Force.

Taken to the extreme, the Jedi Codes produces zero emotion, zero humanity, and apathy.  Interpreting the Jedi Code like this seems to mean doing nothing but meditating on the Force and observing how it interacts with the universe.  Nothing matters except the Force.  The Jedi Order in KOTOR constantly debated and meditated on what to do about the Mandalorians, effectively creating an apathy that allowed the Mandalorians to go unchecked for a time.

Now onto the final part of my argument.  The balanced Force user.  I cannot use the terms Jedi and Sith as they represent extreme ends of a spectrum and sadly, there is no term for the exact middle.  Most video games tell you good actions puts you further into the light and bad actions further into the dark.  In order to maintain balance, the player is required to either to do both good and bad things or pick the middle ground of neutrality.  This is a bit flawed and I think flaws people's thinking of the Force a bit.

The balanced Force User should act because of an emotion but not with the emotion.  An example: I hate slavery.  Slavery angers me and I hate slavery.  I recognize that negative emotional response to slavery and now I have two options.  I act on that response and work to end slavery(in the general sense, not necessarily African slavery in the US) in a legal, peaceful fashion.  Or I can use that hatred and anger to attack/kill every slave owner I can find or come across.  Same with fear.  I am afraid of an unknown person, I can either face the fear and know/understand that person or I can lash at the person out of fear.  However in order to escape the risk of going dark, the balanced Force user must let go of the negative emotion.  Slavery is now illegal, slaves are free, and the slavers are either in prison or have given up on slaving entirely.  I should now let go of my hatred and anger and no longer feel them because they are no longer needed nor wanted.  Yes that man was once a slave owner but they are all freed, he has been penalized for harsh treatment, and he is no longer a slave owner.  What benefit does hating or being angry at that man bring?  None.

Questions?  Comments?
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