Form I: Shii-Cho

[Master Nero Attoru]

The cool thing about lightsaber combat is, there is a lot of room for interpretation. There's no reason NY Jedi can't have forms, and I can't make my own forms. The differences are really small, and there would be more than one sequence for each form anyways. This has always been the problem with martial arts. This school won't accept this other school's kata ergo that school is stupid.

It's called martial arts, so it's subjective. Some people look at my interpretation of Shii Cho and see an awesome piece of work. Others see it and say "man that looks like crap!" Are either of them wrong? Not really, it's all up for interpretation. Since there's little to no guidance on the forms. We have almost free range with how we make them look.

My thoughts exactly.  I like that we're all discussing aspects of this form, but ultimately I believe that the vague description of it leaves MUCH room for interpretation.  You extrapolate based on your own personal experience and perceptions, resulting in a unique version of it.  As I said, the NY Jedi has some cool points just as Lucien's does.

[Master Uilos]

Yeah, I'm of the mind that Katas (and lets be real here folks, this is what we're talking about) should be more about the message than strict adherence to the letter. If you like Sun's shii cho, but feel something should be tweaked. Tweak it. The whole thing reminde dme of the scene in Reservoir Dogs where they're talking about convincing stories and skill, which I find is similar to swordplay and katas (hey, whatever helps)

Look man, just think about it like it’s a joke right? You memorize what’s important. The rest you make your own, alright? You can tell a joke, can’t you?
 
Nope.
 
Pretend your Don Rickles or some f—–’ body and tell a joke, alright? The things you gotta remember are the details. It’s the details that sell your story

The key things I look for when someone puts out a version of the Forms is this:

Is this kata instructional, or is it just demonstrating your skill? The two are connected, but different. Sun's Shii Cho is the former, while I can argue that NY Jedi's version of Soresu is the later. I'm not going to argue the personal demonstration.

If it's instructional, then does it display the strengths and weaknesses of the Form. This is key, as each form had a distinct strength, so too do they have a distinct weakness. It is slightly less evident in performing solo, because these weaknesses are only noticeable when someone spots them. Consider the weakness when developing it. Shii Cho's main weakness is that it's too basic, it doesn't know the concept of "retreat" "riposte". It only knows the concept of Forward, or through.

And that's it. Does it match the Form at it's Core? Does it instruct others to the Form at it's Core?

[Kannik]

I find the idea of a people fighting over a form for a made up style rather amusing.

Well I would hope it hasn't yet gotten to the point where we are "fighting" over it 

Lucien Kane, Duff, Zequar and others, I fully concur.  I think we are discussing a form of Shii-Cho, rather than the form of Shii-Cho.  Even amongst a particular style, and a particular form in that style, each practitioner should, as they get familiar with it, alter things to best suit their body, preferences and abilities.  Which is great!  And each person may do their own version of Shii-Cho – which is also great!  And then we can look them over and discuss where we feel they work, and where they may not.

Thinking about it more, if I were to expand on my thoughts a couple of posts ago (with the idea that there’s probably more to the Shii-Cho form) I think it is actually likely more ‘accurate’, and more profound, to consider each of the seven “Forms” not as a literal form/set/kata, but more of separate martial styles.  Every martial style has various concepts at their foundation, and all movements of that style spring from those foundations.  Reading over the seven styles, each seem to have different and sometimes divergent concepts in movement, energy, focus, attitude and techniques.  They can therefore be taken as different martial styles.  Inside each style different practitioners will do things a bit differently, and if we follow martial development of our planet, different lineages will pop up as masters pass on what they do.  Take Tai Chi for example – all five major styles follow the same 13 principles.  However each style has different things they focus on both inside and outside of those principles.  Chen focuses on whipping energy, Yang in suppleness, Sun in small frame connectedness.  Yet they are all Tai Chi at their core, and the principles are there. 

Shii-Cho has its principles (sweeping movements, etc), and so each master would, over time, develop their own style within that style.   Or, within that Form they develop their own interpretations and sequences (to use the language provided in-universe).  One padawan looking at another may not recognize the exact sequence from a different master but would still see the principles and how they are being applied.

And so it is with us (at least within the way I'm seeing how form/style/sequence/kata/etc could actually all be viewed).    Which is what makes this all great.  Tonight I went out back and began to put together the first section of my Shii-Cho sequence, and once I get it down I want to put up a vid for my jedi martial brothers and sisters to comment.   

loving the conversation,

peace,

Kannik

[ZequarX]

Excellent posts you guys! This is all very exciting to be apart of this!

I too want to create a video for my fellow stargazers I know my brother has a nice video camera, so hopefully here soon I can post video's of my interprutation of Shii-Cho. And then put up a video of us going back and forth with the 1st sequence as to show the defensive side of defending against a Shii-Cho combatant 

[Stephen Strange]

Horizontal swipes...









and from the other side...





Lucien doesn't do these strikes!

As you can see he steps forewards with his striking leg... But then this form takes a lot of space. Also that step we already had in the first strikes. I would suggest the side step here. On the swipe from right to left place the left foot at 45 degrees outwards... turn place it straight... angle the other foot and swipe from left to right.

More foot work introduced and still keeping the technique in.

*note*

He lounges a bit and bends foreward during the swipes... (and the strikes too). This cannot be right even if the power is greater. The technique should hold the back straight and the spine above middle-centre stance. This for balance. Overstretching is NOT good!

[Stephen Strange]

Upward strikes...











Lucien does this part too... the strikes go from below right to top left using the right leg again as strike point. And vice-versa... Sun executes this as one solid sequence without a real stop.









Although Lucien puts some more power in these strikes it is basically the same technique. Watch how Lucien holds his back straight here... he doesn't lounges/overstretches as Sun does.

[ZequarX]

Although Lucien puts some more power in these strikes it is basically the same technique. Watch how Lucien holds his back straight here... he doesn't lounges/overstretches as Sun does.

Keeping your back straight is very, very important. Now this is not the same as staying stiff, just to clear up confusion. With a strong back comes a strong core and with both of these being the focal point for any one person, Lucien is setting a good example. A lot of your power derives from the core and back area so strengthening these parts of your body will also in turn help you better your skills as a duelist or help you master any of the martial forms of lightsaber combat... especially form IV, Ataru.

[Master Lucien Kane]

Keeping your back straight is very, very important. Now this is not the same as staying stiff, just to clear up confusion. With a strong back comes a strong core and with both of these being the focal point for any one person, Lucien is setting a good example. A lot of your power derives from the core and back area so strengthening these parts of your body will also in turn help you better your skills as a duelist or help you master any of the martial forms of lightsaber combat... especially form IV, Ataru.

That being said, with my fighting style. My back goes bendy during a duel, I whip around and bend and suck in my gut and lean back a lot to evade getting hit. When not having a blade swung at your face though I agree the back should stay straight. Just don't lock that in so that you can't ever adapt and move if you need to.

[Stephen Strange]

But fighting style and Kata is two different things. The technique in a kata should be perfect... so it can be used to teach and practice. What you do with it afterwards in a fight can be different. But the basics must be trained right.

[Master Uilos]

But fighting style and Kata is two different things. The technique in a kata should be perfect... so it can be used to teach and practice. What you do with it afterwards in a fight can be different. But the basics must be trained right.

One, Thank you for this ^^. Two, I would change "perfect" with "precise". If we're looking for perfection, we may as well stop right here and do something constructive with our talents.

Three. Do NOT READ TOO MUCH INTO THE FORM. If you start comparing one practitioner to the other, you have officially missed the point of a kata. It's not about "Well look how this one did that one and that one did this one." Look at their understanding and their technique. Sun, five years after making that Form, has changed significantly, as has his understanding of the form which in turn has changed the form. It's subtle, but it's much improved.

A kata should be precise enough to teach, but free enough to adapt. Everything must have an internal flow, or it is dead

[Stephen Strange]

One, Thank you for this ^^. Two, I would change "perfect" with "precise". If we're looking for perfection, we may as well stop right here and do something constructive with our talents.

Three. Do NOT READ TOO MUCH INTO THE FORM. If you start comparing one practitioner to the other, you have officially missed the point of a kata. It's not about "Well look how this one did that one and that one did this one." Look at their understanding and their technique. Sun, five years after making that Form, has changed significantly, as has his understanding of the form which in turn has changed the form. It's subtle, but it's much improved.

A kata should be precise enough to teach, but free enough to adapt. Everything must have an internal flow, or it is dead

Yes.. that is what we are doing here... Sun and his friends started a new art. Based on the popularity of the FX light sabers, the information in the books... and his own knowledge of martial arts a new swordfighting lesson was born. And it is now still 'under construction'. What I just want to reach is a complete worked out form so it can be practiced without me living in NY or LA and taking classes. And the thrill of seeying this develop is also why I put so much time in this.

It is like all martial arts considered 'real'(I have this discussion with a collegue of mine who doesn't see this as a real martial art development but merely as playing with a toy. The further evolution of a martial arts and/or a dance is by introducing new elements that the current practicioner or the public like to do. Because if that person doesn't like to do it, everything will die out eventually.

Dance is a good comparison... as is music. A dance can be combined with other movements because the dancer likes to be different (maybe from background like 'Shakira' who combines bellydance and latin) or because the public wants to see something different. If there is more public wanting to see the different dance, that means more money coming in for the dancer... which results in the dance becoming more performed... more seen... and eventually copied (Mata Hari). Change must be there for an art to evolve... and the person practicing it stands at the root of that all.

[Duff Man]

For those that haven't read Uilos718's paper I link it here. http://www.saberforum.com/index.php?topic=2131.0  it is worth a look.

[Darth Cestual]

Dunno if this will help anyone else, but I sketched myself some "crib-notes" to refer to when at work.

[Master Uilos]

Cestual,  that's really beautiful. Would you mind if I swipe a copy to teach?

[ZequarX]

Cestual,  that's really beautiful. Would you mind if I swipe a copy to teach?

Agreed Cestual, well done man. just enough detail for someone to look and learn off of it. This would definitely be a "must" in the Form I, Shii-Cho, martial manual!