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Author Topic: So..... Why DID Vader kill the Emperor???  (Read 4737 times)
Darth Logos
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« Reply #30 on: February 20, 2018, 02:25:13 PM »

One thing the new comics have shown, is Vader building a bit of a network outside of Papa Palpatines sight. 
Ask yourself.........is this relevant to a plot point that is 30+ years older?

Are you so certain it was ACTUALLY out of Palpy's sight?  Creating networks to be more effective of a tool, to let Vader think, as well, that he is getting somewhere in his plotting, sounds just like a Palpy method...
Already been done. Starkiller had one of the most advanced infiltration ships in the Empire. A pilot handpicked by Vader (ulterior motives not withstanding). And mad sneaky skills. And even the Emperor still found them. (Although I haven't ruled out the possibility of Vader ratting himself out to sow the deception. Undecided)

I state whats written down as of now, I have my own conjectures but I stuck to the facts ;P   But Vader did find out about Luke outside of Palpy's sight.
Even though the Emperor is fully aware of the father/son relationship by EpV?

I was going off the idea you gave me, that off the top of my head I don't recall any Sith ever going "I've got a bright idea, I'll usurp Sidious by myself." They always sought help with taking him down, Tyranus did, Maul did, Vader did, I'm not too familiar with TFU but good on Starkiller if he tried. It's just a testament to the high opinion that the Sith have for Sidious if they knew better than to take him on solo. Doubly so in that pride is a dark side trait and all of his apprentices laid that aside because they probably thought they'd end up fried, lol it rhymes.  Roll Eyes

Eh, I think the whole "foresight" thing is kind of a weak plot tool in Star Wars. It's too easy to say "-insert character- can tell future events except when the plot warrants it, then they don't see it coming." just my two pennies. 

I like this thread, lots of good discussion here.
That's what was established. Sidious trained his "apprentices" just enough for them to be exceptionally useful, but never enough to stand a chance of challenging him. Even to a point that multiple foes wouldn't be enough to match him. The same tradition was carried on when Dooku went looking for another lackey. He wanted someone powerful enough to use, but not too much to control. Ultimately, Ventress and Opress weren't enough to challenge him, so he and one of his lackeys would never be enough to take down the Master. I don't remember Dooku making a play, though. Maul only sought revenge for being betrayed, despite acknowledging that he was apprentice to "the most powerful being in the galaxy."

SPOILER ALERT:

Vader's scheme in TFU was to use Starkiller to draw out the Emperor's enemies. Essentially, Starkiller rallied the Alliance founders. And once they were all gathered, Vader struck. He as much admitted to Marek that he lied his ass off for the last 18 or so years, and that he never intended to usurp the Emperor with him. The LS ending was pretty sweet, when the surviving Rebels found the Marek family crest (Wookiee origin unknown) as what we all recognize. But before that, Marek knocked Vader out of the fight, and engaged the Emperor to allow the Rebels time to escape.

I don't think their fear of Sidious reflected a high opinion, merely that they knew they were no match. It's like when you're a child, you know that you are no match for an adult (usually). But as you grow and learn you discover that you eventually become a match, if not surpass their ability. If you want to talk about ultimate Sith power, you should read up on Emperor Vitiate. Wink

On the foresight note, have you ever paid attention to an event when it turned out exactly as you expected? Flip a light switch. Drive home from work. Open the drain in the bathtub. The answer is no. You only take note when something is out of place. The light doesn't come on. You have to take a detour. The bathtub doesn't drain. I think that the Emperor couldn't predict the exact outcome of his throne room, because the specific of him frying look was too specific, and therefore why would he suspect that action of triggering his faithful dog?
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« Reply #31 on: February 20, 2018, 03:37:07 PM »

Well written, Logos.
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Saso Is-kor
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« Reply #32 on: February 20, 2018, 03:45:19 PM »

On the foresight note, have you ever paid attention to an event when it turned out exactly as you expected? Flip a light switch. Drive home from work. Open the drain in the bathtub. The answer is no. You only take note when something is out of place. The light doesn't come on. You have to take a detour. The bathtub doesn't drain. I think that the Emperor couldn't predict the exact outcome of his throne room, because the specific of him frying look was too specific, and therefore why would he suspect that action of triggering his faithful dog?

I see what you mean, but I still think that splitting hairs on the entire "foresight" in Star Wars pokes holes in how effective and cohesive the ability is. I'll look into Emperor Vitiate, I've never even heard of him.

Also, you can probably tell I'm a Light-sider so I appreciate your tutelage Darth Logos.
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« Reply #33 on: February 20, 2018, 04:05:49 PM »

I see what you mean, but I still think that splitting hairs on the entire "foresight" in Star Wars pokes holes in how effective and cohesive the ability is. I'll look into Emperor Vitiate, I've never even heard of him.

Also, you can probably tell I'm a Light-sider so I appreciate your tutelage Darth Logos.

It has occurred to me that you're looking at foresight, which I mentioned, as though I was referring to precognition, like Force visions.  I was speaking of foresight as one has when playing chess, having the vision to see where an action, or series of them, will lead.
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« Reply #34 on: February 20, 2018, 09:56:28 PM »

It has occurred to me that you're looking at foresight, which I mentioned, as though I was referring to precognition, like Force visions.  I was speaking of foresight as one has when playing chess, having the vision to see where an action, or series of them, will lead.

Gotcha Illyiss, that makes more sense.
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"Remember what I told you about seeking after conflict, Padawan. We shouldn't go into this assignment with that mentality," Plo Koon said quietly.
     “I get it, Plo. But if I were to put odds on us brandishing our lightsabers by rotation’s end… well... you probably don’t want to know,” Saso teased back. Plo chuckled as the turbolift slowed and within moments they were heading for the Temple hangars.

Make Jedi pouches: http://www.saberforum.com/index.php?topic=37304.0
Make Jedi food capsules: http://www.saberforum.com/index.php?topic=38006.0

Darth Logos
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« Reply #35 on: February 21, 2018, 10:10:16 AM »

I see what you mean, but I still think that splitting hairs on the entire "foresight" in Star Wars pokes holes in how effective and cohesive the ability is. I'll look into Emperor Vitiate, I've never even heard of him.

Also, you can probably tell I'm a Light-sider so I appreciate your tutelage Darth Logos.
If you ever want a good education, I recommend reading some of the discussions in the Jedi and Sith Academy threads.

You're in for a treat (maybe) when you research Vitiate. Long story short: he would make Sidious piss his pants and be left sucking his thumb in the fetal position.
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« Reply #36 on: February 26, 2019, 12:11:42 AM »

Sorry, decided to help two squabbling Sith out and start a thread for them.  ;-)

It has been suggested that Vader was not in fact acting altruistically when he killed the Emperor.  That his intentions were in fact what he had stated to Luke earlier - kill the Emperor, take his place, and rule the galaxy as father and son.

Others have contended that Vader, still conflicted at his core, acted to save his son from death and through his action redeemed himself, turning away from the Dark Side and returning to the Light Side of the force.

So, I pose the question:  Which do you think it is?  Or is there a third way?  Did Anakin Skywalker truly redeem himself, or was it just Vader grasping at a last, desperate chance to usurp Darth Sidious and perhaps exact revenge on him for lying to him about being able to keep Padame alive?

Share your thoughts...




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Finally: The emperor: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aKWVCv8uWDI
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scifidude79
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« Reply #37 on: February 26, 2019, 07:27:09 AM »

Maybe it's both. Maybe he wanted to kill Palpatine so that there was nothing left to stand in the way of his rule, but at the same time save Luke so that he could have his son at his side. After all, as others have pointed out, Luke and Leia are the only family he has left at that point. His closeness to his mom, then being devastated by her death, marrying Padme, then being thrilled to find out she was pregnant, then being devastated by her death and believing his unborn child was also dead, pointed to a man who is big on family. When he had nothing left, he served the Emperor faithfully, but Luke provided him with what he always wanted, a close family member to rule with him. (he proposed the idea of a joint rule to both Padme and Luke) So, killing the Emperor to save Luke's life doesn't necessarily mean he all of a sudden turned good. It just means he didn't want his only son and heir to die a the hands of a master that he never felt that kind of connection to. His suit being fried may have been an unforeseen circumstance. Realizing he was going to die anyway may have been what caused him to finally let go of the Dark Side and be at peace.

Though, I've always just thought he did it to save Luke and never really delved into the reasons behind the choice.
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« Reply #38 on: February 26, 2019, 10:09:41 AM »


Can't view the vid, but I'm scratching my head as to the relevance of the other links.
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« Reply #39 on: February 26, 2019, 10:58:47 AM »

I don’t understand the relevance of the links either.

Well said scifidude, that is pretty much what I think/feel about the subject.
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« Reply #40 on: February 26, 2019, 08:22:01 AM »

The time to overthrow the Emperor to replace him was when Luke grabbed his saber and tried to strike Palpatine. Instead of blocking Luke, they could have struck him down together. Vader's loyalties were mixed, twisted and tested as much as Palpy tried to twist Luke. Luke's final refusal inspired Vader and frustrated Palpatine. Perhaps that was the first real moment Vader had to kill the Emperor, which was Anakin's plan from before Padme's death. I don't know that Vader ever could be convinced that Palpatine's politics of one ruler was wrong, but he was shown that Palpatine isn't it. But, in the aftermath, he thought of Luke's survival, wanting Leia to know Luke was right and not Vader's own survival, which Sith are known to do. I'd say it's clear his selfless mindset and that he was redeemed. Also, he's a frikkin' spirit at the end, sittin' next to Yoda and Obi-Wan.
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« Reply #41 on: February 27, 2019, 09:32:05 AM »

The time to overthrow the Emperor to replace him was when Luke grabbed his saber and tried to strike Palpatine. Instead of blocking Luke, they could have struck him down together. Vader's loyalties were mixed, twisted and tested as much as Palpy tried to twist Luke. Luke's final refusal inspired Vader and frustrated Palpatine. Perhaps that was the first real moment Vader had to kill the Emperor, which was Anakin's plan from before Padme's death. I don't know that Vader ever could be convinced that Palpatine's politics of one ruler was wrong, but he was shown that Palpatine isn't it. But, in the aftermath, he thought of Luke's survival, wanting Leia to know Luke was right and not Vader's own survival, which Sith are known to do. I'd say it's clear his selfless mindset and that he was redeemed. Also, he's a frikkin' spirit at the end, sittin' next to Yoda and Obi-Wan.
Ugh. Don't get me started on the ghosts. It was an excuse for a warm fuzzy.
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« Reply #42 on: February 27, 2019, 12:46:01 PM »

Ugh. Don't get me started on the ghosts. It was an excuse for a warm fuzzy.

Wait, you don't like the Force Ghosts at the end of ROTJ?
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« Reply #43 on: February 27, 2019, 01:11:53 PM »

Depends on which ROTJ. Original cut's 'salright.

But now that you ask I started theorizing on how a Force spirit is generated. From what the movies have portrayed, it seems that the requisite is being at peace and accepting death. Qui Gon was at peace knowing that Obi Wan would fulfill his dying wish. Yoda falls asleep and literally poofs out. Obi Wan accepts that his death will have far flung victories by allowing Luke to escape. Vader accepts his mistakes and finally sees his son as a correction for his sins. All of the Sith Lords that fell, did so in a frenzied or panicked state. Dooku, unbelieving that his master just threw him under the bus after he lost both hands, and possibly believing that a Jedi would not act as executioner. Sidious was all hyped up on bad vibes to produce lightning (which apparently is not easily turned off) and then plummets to his death screaming. Also considering that the very title of Darth is representative of "conqueror of death." They all really don't want to see the end, and more than likely never accept it. It also wouldn't help that they have a long history of being betrayed by their apprentices. I don't see many of them going out quietly. Also, going off of this theory, it's doubtful that Windu made it to ghost-hood. Unless he came to grips with death before hitting the ground.
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« Reply #44 on: February 27, 2019, 06:41:36 AM »

Depends on which ROTJ. Original cut's 'salright.

But now that you ask I started theorizing on how a Force spirit is generated. From what the movies have portrayed, it seems that the requisite is being at peace and accepting death. Qui Gon was at peace knowing that Obi Wan would fulfill his dying wish. Yoda falls asleep and literally poofs out. Obi Wan accepts that his death will have far flung victories by allowing Luke to escape. Vader accepts his mistakes and finally sees his son as a correction for his sins. All of the Sith Lords that fell, did so in a frenzied or panicked state. Dooku, unbelieving that his master just threw him under the bus after he lost both hands, and possibly believing that a Jedi would not act as executioner. Sidious was all hyped up on bad vibes to produce lightning (which apparently is not easily turned off) and then plummets to his death screaming. Also considering that the very title of Darth is representative of "conqueror of death." They all really don't want to see the end, and more than likely never accept it. It also wouldn't help that they have a long history of being betrayed by their apprentices. I don't see many of them going out quietly. Also, going off of this theory, it's doubtful that Windu made it to ghost-hood. Unless he came to grips with death before hitting the ground.

That's pretty much what the consensus is, its why in the EU Sith Lords became specters.  Got to wonder about Mace though since Qui-Gon was the first to figure it out and taught it to Yoda
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