Saber Forum

Hi guys.

Sorry for posting so many topics I guess I am just overwhelmed by this forum and all the nice people in here.  :)

I was just wondering.... All of you have a preference when it comes to the light or the dark side. So why do you prefer one over the other?

I myself like the dark side due to the following:

Black is my favorite colour(I know - black is not really a colour). ;)
DARTH VADER, need I say more? :)
The elegance of the sith, they are not like bullies who just want to kick you around, they are pure evil and this is depicted in a very elegant and cold way. They mess with your mind - not because they can, because YOU know they can. :)
Red lightsabers look really good! 

I would really like to know why you dig one side over the other? :)
Remember; people are a lot like lightsabers, they can brighten your day - they are colourful - and they are really fun to wield. ;) (Joking). So tacky, but had to do it. :)

Cheers.

I like the Jedi/ Light Side path. I have always been into the ideals of chivalry and rightousness. Perhaps this stems from my time in the service, but I feel good to be in a uniform, fight for a cause, devote myself to duties and serve others. There is a sense of pride and accomplishment that goes with all of that and I believe the Jedi embody all of that in a very pure way.

Good respons. I can, kind of, relate to that. :) I do not mean to nigliche your reply, but the sith is also fighting for a cause, it just lacks the nobel aspect. ;)

Sith all the way. We awesome like that. This is my two cents. Lol.

Neither

I go grey because I can can work for the greater good while not specifically choosing sides.
As a Grey Jedi I try to balance the force and take the positive aspects (in my mind) from both sides.

I find the Sith too dark and seem to oppress, while Jedi follow such a strict code that doesnt leave much room for interpretation. I also think the Jedi act too much on the behalf of the Republic and don't seem too help those that are outside it.

Hope that makes sense.

Sith the dark side is BAMF!

Jedi Sentinel.

That way I can operate like Batman and the Justice League.

Batman doesn't always like to be around those guys so he chooses to be more solitary and work with the civilians in Gotham. Just as a sentinel typically opts for missions on planets further from the safety of the republic's law.

Although, I am a firm believer in the ideas of Potentium, which is not the preferred school of thought within the Order.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Potentium (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Potentium)

"Believers of Potentium said that the potential for light and dark sides resided in the user, not the Force itself,[1] and that the Jedi are merely afraid to explore the full potential of the Force.[2] They also thought that the Jedi Masters refused to believe in the Potentium view because it would mean the Jedi were not needed to fight evil, for evil would not exist. And since there was no dark side, there were no dark side actions or Force techniques; in effect any action, good or evil, could be performed without risk as long as the intent was not evil."

Keep in mind the whole "Point of view" aspect of the Sith and Jedi. This belief can be twisted as Evil to some is not Evil to others.

As in life, I mold my character around what I would do with this power, which is "Try not to be an arse." which is my shortened version of the classic "With great power comes great responsibility."

^ Seems to be like my thoughts. I didn't know about Potentium. Ill have to read up on it.

After all I am more of a moral based assassin.

Kham-Ryn Kurios why does it seem like you think like me and we both also seem to love Deus Ex. lol

If you met me on the street, you'd swear I was a Jedi. I'm kind-hearted, nice, friendly, and will generally go out of my way to do something for someone. However, I very much respect and identify with the Sith philosophy. That is not to say I would love going around killing or torturing innocent people for the hell of it. I do however love the idea of drawing strength from your passions and that emotions can be a very potent tool to use. In my times of anger, rage, heartbreak, and depression, I've never felt more energized or empowered and capable of action. I guess I tend to fluctuate between the two. On the outside I'm pretty much as Jedi as they come, but I secretly relate more to the ways of a Sith in their quest for power, strength through passion, and hunger for something more always. Now there are times when internally I am quite at peace and very calm, but that is mainly when I'm not in conflict with something or when I don't have a goal to strive for. Typically though, you'll find I much more identify with the Sith, just not the evil jackass side of it lol. As an example, if I had a goal I really wanted to see achieved, a typical Jedi would take a very structured logical path with the least amount of conflict in order for that goal to be met. I, however, would do whatever it took to see it fulfilled in the quickest way possible and in the simplest way possible (taking the quick and easy path).




In terms of points, you can give me whichever you want because of my tendency to fluctuate between the two. :P

Something a lot of people like about the Sith is their goal of personal freedom. However, if you'll notice, they're perfectly fine with taking the freedom of everybody else.

Something to ponder.

Anyway, I dislike both.

I dislike the Sith for the same reasons I dislike serial killers.

I dislike the Jedi for their ethics. Judge, jury, and executioner, all in a few seconds. They are almost as bad as the Sith in my mind. They are just about the worst protectors of the peace possible.

I much prefer the Fallanassi. They isolate themselves and don't focus on war.

However, I consider Fay to be the ideal Force user. She could technically be considered a Grey Jedi, but I dislike that term and she's never referred to as one.

Hmmm poster asks a question but is clearly on the side of the sith...how to respond without ye old Jedi vs sith debate?

For me the simple answer is that the ideals of what the Jedi stand for represent order, justice, and hope.  All the Jedi follow a path of selflessness, doing what they can to improve life for others.

The sith, to the core with each and every one represents one singular focus...selfishness.  The sith set their own path for themselves and no one else...anyone that keeps the goal of what they want is therefor bad.

So the answer is easy for me, Jedi.

I am a firm believer in the foundation of the Jedi ideal...regardless of the EU stories that paint another picture of Jedi being questionable and sith somehow finding a spotlight...the video games have further blurred the line, trading ideals for cool powers.

No trolling here...I can see no other path than Jedi.

If I were a 16yr again, angry at the world, thinking everyone owed me something, believing I was invulnerable...then I may have considered the sith path, but unlikely.

For a cosplay game or con I could easily make and wear a sith costume without any grief, but if asked which side I prefer...always Jedi.

Jedi FTW


(http://desmond.imageshack.us/Himg577/scaled.php?server=577&filename=jedivssithbyweaselpa.jpg&res=landing)

Jedi

Honestly, I'd be on the Sith side. But moreso on the Order of Revan. I believe in a balance in both the Light and Dark Side, however I heavily rely on my emotions alongside my logic and reasoning. Inside I am a deeply willful, emotional bomb. Alongside of that, I'm not the person I used to be. I used to be that really nice, honest guy that everyone used to like. However, after years of just being used and abused, offering my services and such without ever being thanked and being dumped off at the end, I became tired of being the goody-two-shoes person. For a while my life became really self-centered and power hungry, and I became the biggest asshole and often manipulated people myself.

And then I settled down again, matured I guess. But I see things more realistically now, at least. You know. I grew up from a kid, into an adult. I kind of relate this on how Revan was a Sith, Born again Jedi, then Revanite Sith.

Also, I've always played a good villian.

Jedi.

To begin with, I have an extremely hard time getting behind the Sith attitude, as it is largely presented.  I am not a manipulative person; taking advantage of people isn't really in my nature.  I also don't find powerful emotion to be a great source of "drive," for the most part.  When I get angry, I am often disappointed in myself for getting angry.  When I am hurt, it is much the same.  I end up spinning wheels and doing nothing.  It feels like wasted effort.
I find I am far more productive and effective when my mind is clear and focused, when I don't have things grinding my gears, or when I can push those things out of my mind.

As an example, when I'm working out and I'm getting out frustration, I feel like I accomplish nothing -- I grind my teeth, I squirm in the seat, I fight for every rep, and my form sucks, because I'm letting my frustration drive me, and more often than not I end up with the bad kind of soreness the next day, resulting in needing an extra off day or two.  When I work out with a clear head, I focus on form, I control my breathing, my timing is tight, and I feel wonderful the following day.
Also, my work suffers when I'm working under emotional duress.  I can't write worth crap, and I kind of need to be able to write.

A great deal of the Jedi philosophy is quite literally the Zen philosophy, and I greatly admire that way of thinking.  The idea of seeking deeper understanding and consequently removing oneself from the equation, to the point that the self is entirely removed from one's own perspective, really appeals to me on a number of levels.

I would elaborate, but I'm afraid people would draw a religious interpretation from my ramblings, so in the spirit of the "no religion" rule I'll stop myself there.

I would describe myself as a jedi, although not the typical living force jedi. The reason i identify with them is because I do find myself as a more chivalrous honest guy, and usually keep a cool head in any situation, but i would probably be on more of the fringes of the jedi order because i do agree with kham on the potentium theory to an extent, but also draw some from the unifying force, I also agree with the Aing-tii Monks, which is that there isnt jst a dark and ligh but that the force is a rainbow of colors, but i do still agree with some aspects of the living force. Part of this is because i would do anything for loved ones or to save someone, and there are times when your passions are helpful.

In my opinion, I consider myself a renegade. I embrace some of the ideals of both factions, yet I choose neither side. I tend to tangle with the jedi, but I will fight sith if necessary. The reason for my choosing the sith title of Darth is to strike fear in those who cross me. However, morally I lean more toward the Dark side. A Dark Jedi Sentinel of sorts, but without actually being part of the Order. A Ronin Force user if you will...

I don't recall actually stating a preference for points.  I think my first points awarded were light because I opened with a line that I said to my daughter as she was going to sleep at night:  "As long as there is light, I will be here."  The light side points just continued to come. 

To me, a point is a point no matter which direction it comes.  It is not a reflection of your character honestly.

Jedi, always been Jedi. Like others, I like the ideals or order, peace, justice, hope. I don't like the manipulative and evil side of the sith, always looking out for themselves, only helping others if it helps them individually. Is it saying something that when I play motor, I can't play dark side? I've tried a few times, but my instincts always point me to the light side path!
in saying that though, I don't fully agree with the Jedi code. A lack of knowledge or understanding isn't necessarily a good excuse for inaction, and I have other reasons (but I'm at work and running out of lunch break!) if your definition of a grey Jedi is "follows the Jedi order but doesn't always agree with the dogma' (see other post) then id be a grey Jedi. I haven't read much into the star wars universe, but I fancy myself more a Jedi sentinel I think

Sith.

my Passion drives me. passion for the things i do and passion for my family.
my rage makes me stronger. i can literally feel the adrenilin rushing through my muscles, making me able to do things that i never thought i could pysically. same with fear.
the lust for power is strong too. i want to be better than my freind at lightsaber duelling. i find i have an edge when i want revenge for a painful hit. (controlled, of course, i dont just lash at him lol)
and most of all, i always feel the need to prove myself the better through combat. (lightsaber again, i dont just start fights with random people!)

i tried jedi. meditation, calmness etc. i just ended up getting angry.

in saying what i did though, i personally prefer black clothing, and my favourite band is disturbed. as a teen i used to play linkin park to calm me, was the only music i could study to (dont like their new direction, but we wont go there). also as a teenager i used to go bash up my kick bag when i was in a bad mood :P id feel much better afterwards! i guess thats a bit sith like in nature :P

but in contrast again to that, i also trained regularly in taekwondo as a teen, if i got stuck in an assignment or study id use my classes as a break, then come back and blitz my studying. course theres all the good things that come from exercise there, training helps release a lot of tension. and i had friends at taekwondo. but it was also about self control, discipline and respect. our academy and my instructor in particular emphasised those values over just being good at sparring and belting other people up. power and respect came from being able to control yourself, from doing the techniques right, not from just getting angry and going full ball at the other person. keeping a level and cool head to analyse your opponent and predict their next moves usually worked much better than getting angry and letting your emotions control your actions. sure anger can make you stronger, but its not necessarily going to let you win.
i never did taekwondo for the competition side of things, and i was never particularly good at sparring, only competitively sparred a few times and only as a higher belt, so i got my butt handed to me a few times in local competitions. i was in it for the fun of it- at one stage i was training and teaching 5 to 6 days a week in three different clubs at my academy. so taekwondo was kinda my life lol, and with the emphasis being on discipline and self control i guess thats kind of jedi-ish :)

Ah, this old discussion, but in a new thread.

I would disagree that Jedi necessarily means order - Sith seek order too - but Rel and I have differed on these little semantic points for ages now, and I do so love to play Sith's Advocate. 

Now, to me, Sith Order is an imposed order, an order that comes from enforcing one's vision upon others.  "I believe X, therefore you need to believe X or you are my enemy."  That old chestnut about Sith dealing in absolutes.

Jedi, to me, seek not Order, but Harmony - that life has its flow, and that to walk the Light Side is to accept that flow and realize that others can see it differently, and that many viewpoints can each be correct.  I may see something as green, while a color-blind person might see it as gray.  Each of us is correct in how we interpret that for ourselves.  I suppose it might touch on the idea of multiple personal paradigms existing within the overarching sphere of a communal consensual paradigm...

Justice and Hope, however, I would agree with.

I can play a Sith pretty well (long foundation in RPGs).  But in life - I try to see from the other person's point of view as much as I can, and I work in a customer service environment.

Harmony...seeing color compared to black and white...this...we can agree with this  :D

Jedi. why would you want to be a sith and bring suffering? they get there power through suffereing!

simply put...  the force, nothing more... nothing less...    i listen, and follow the force.. it tells me where im needed.. i am slave to no mortal, as the force sustains me in every way thinkable... weather it be drainning my foes who fall to my blade... or meditating and absorbing what sustenance the force will provide... i do not take this energy, as it flows into me freely.. i simply except it....

if the force see fit to have my life end, it may do so at any given moment...

this is my grey..

***note.. i do not look for killing, but if i must kill and entity, i would take its essence... not by force, but that the force itself would redirect what energies it saw fit to my being, from said entity***

Personally I identify with both ,but both arnt even opposites sith hate ,no love in core of their order however love is forbiden in the jedi order.  Love is an act of creation love brings life.  The foce is an invisable force guiding all of us so when it brings you to someone how do you know it's not meant to be?  To be a Jedi is to deprive ones self of being human.  Just because you don't acknowledge somthing doesnt mean it goes away.  Just like Hal Jordan said basically courage is not the absence of fear but acknowledging and overcoming.  That and both sith and Jedi fear the same thing curuption of both ideas I mean for both factions nothing's changed almost since the beginning.  I'm grey but i sway to light just dont like having to give up all emotion and don't want be sith to kill my master so there can only be two I like family not backstabbing each other

"''There is no ignorance; there is knowledge.
There is no fear; there is power.
I am the heart of the Force.
I am the revealing fire of light.
I am the mystery of darkness
In balance with chaos and harmony,
Immortal in the Force.''"
―The Je'daii Code

This is why I use the term "Gray Sith" to describe myself.

I wonder if there are any Light Sith... There are Dark Jedi, so there must be Light Sith, too.

I would say yes, but I think Sith Implies you are fueled by hate. And if you hard fueled by anger and hate, the dark side consumes you, leaving you no choice in the matter. That's why as a Je'daii I would use emotion, love, and passion, as well as the Force in Nature, In Science, Alchemy, etc. but at a balance with the light.

Jedi, I could explain in more detail, but I just don't feel like it right now.

Lucas

However, there was at least one canonical Light Sith, namely Darth Gravid.

Yeah he was the one who filled that planetoid that he resided in with Force Specters.

Wasnt Darth Gravid a Dark Lord of the Sith who switched to the Light? Isn't that different. People Switch From Jedi to full Sith all the time. You could be correct though, I dont know much about Darth Gravid.

Edit: I thought Grey or Gray Jedi just beleive in the force not in light or dark and Je'daii beleive in the balance of both. So That wouldnt mean a Grey Jedi is good with a little bit of bad. Or A Light Sith being a sith whos a little bit light. Like I said I think those who use the hate and anger of the dark side get consumed, so its my opinion that its impossible to have one. But also this is a case showing its possible Sith can switch sides altogether if an incident happens strong enough to make them do so and snap out of it.

Moisture Farmer.

Sith are, by definition, Dark Siders.


Dark Jedi is just a term that was coined to give authors an excuse to make more Dark Side/red lightsaber-wielding villains. It has nothing to do with the actual Jedi Order. Personally, I hate the term... it sounds like a description of the Sith by someone who has never seen SW.

I 100 percent agree, luna.

Wasn't that Darth Vectivus?

A Sith-species Jedi Master, could be considered a light Sith....But I really doubt there were any canon ones.

Only in ToR...

I may be wrong then. Sometimes I get Sith Lords mixed up, but hey no one is perfect. Lol

I would kill him / her and make a mug of the skull and some finger bones. abomination

I'm glad I'm not the only one that hates that term, even if my reasons are slightly different from yours.  :P
Admittedly, I also think "grey Jedi" shouldn't be a thing, but that's a discussion for another time and thread.

Dude, harsh! Just brutal! Point!

"Their Order might have already been decimated had it not been for the setback Darth Gravid dealt the Sith." ―Darth Plagueis, to Darth Sidious, regarding Darth Gravid's role in hindering the Grand Plan against the Jedi Order


Darth Gravid was a Human male who reigned as the Dark Lord of the Sith in the lineage of the Order of the Sith Lords. During his tenure as a Sith Lord, Gravid took a Twi'lek female as his apprentice, naming her Darth Gean. Over time, he was drawn to the light side of the Force and began to lose his sanity as a result of attempting to combine some of the philosophies of the Jedi, the Sith's enemies, with his teachings. He became convinced that he had to sabotage the Sith teachings in order to preserve the Order. Around 552 BBY, Gravid destroyed the majority of the Sith's lore before Gean slew him in his fortress on the planet Jaguada. Gravid's actions against the Sith set the organization back for centuries.


A sith lord that literally sees the light, realizes the evil that has been done and will be done by his order, and tries to destroy it from within.

This...this is a sith that gains my attention...if only he had been a bit more successful he would have been on my short list of heroes.

 ;)

that's what they did to Black Beard

I am currently trying to work out exactly which side of The Force I'm on.

I feel a very strong pull towards the Dark side, because they embrace their passion, their feelings, their emotions, and distil them into a razor-sharp intent. Granted, that intent is almost exclusively evil, and I don't particularly hold with destroying planets, enslaving races and things of that type. But there is most certainly power and control in that path.

 HOWEVER, nor am I a poster-boy for the Jedi. I do identify with Qui-gon Jinn in particular, a Noble, brave, peaceful but POWERFUL man who had a calm and commanding bearing about him before he even drew a lightsaber. He was also an excellent duellist and very strong with The Force.

But the Jedi have their flaws; their arrogance, their dogma, they cold, dispassionate and stifling rigidity. To my mind, the Jedi Order was every bit the dictatorship that the Sith rule of two is; and if you need proof, read the "Jedi Path". Case in point; The council can nullify a victory in the trials if they feel The Force is "Inadequately" with a candidate, or they can pass a candidate who has shown little or no aptitude at all; because they feel The Force has a "greater plan". Appeals of any kind are also forbidden!

As I said, I am still waiting to be "turned" one way or the other.

Go with the Fallanassi. We have pie, cake, cookies, and peace.

Incredibly well said. I would give you a thousand points if I could.

I am greatly honoured by your praise.

For me, I'm 100% Sith. I'd like to point out that Sith are not inherently evil. The Sith philosophy is to further your own power by any means depending on one's own definition of power whether that's total control over the galaxy, killing the most powerful enemies, etc. Lords Vader and Caedus became Sith to gain more power to protect the ones they loved.  Me, personally, I would crush my enemies and make my family the most powerful around. Behind the scenes, anyways. If I acted out in the open, those accursed Jedi would make an attempt on my life... 

(clipped)

Evil is profound immorality. In certain religious contexts evil has been described as a supernatural force. Definitions of evil vary, as does the analysis of its root motives and causes. However elements that are commonly associated with evil involve unbalanced behavior involving expediency, selfishness, ignorance, or neglect.

In cultures with Manichaean and Abrahamic religious influence, evil is usually perceived as the dualistic antagonistic opposite of good, in which good should prevail and evil should be defeated. In cultures with Buddhist spiritual influence, both good and evil are perceived as part of an antagonistic duality that itself must be overcome through achieving Śūnyatā meaning emptiness in the sense of recognition of good and evil being two opposing principles but not a reality, emptying the duality of them, and achieving a oneness.

The philosophical question of whether morality is absolute or relative leads to questions about the nature of evil, with views falling into one of four opposed camps: moral absolutism, amoralism, moral relativism, and moral universalism.

*****

This argument knows no beginning or ending...it is a continuous mobius...a constant cycle.

You, on the other side of the interweb, you will believe, support, and say whatever you want to...I can not convince you other wise.

If you like sith, then great!

If you like Jedi, then great!

But there are a few simple aspects that are set in stone...Uncle Lucas followed a handful of established cultural and historical points of interest.  

The Jedi represent good, justice, and selflessness.

The sith represent evil, corruption, and selfishness.

But the full range of humanity is still possible within these guidelines, hence those that fall from the light into darkness and those who find the path in the darkness walking back into the light.

Are all Jedi the pinnacle of what the Council set as the bar? No  There are those who skirt the guidelines, why...because they are human (or aliens with humanity) and as such have strengths and weaknesses.

To be Jedi is to seek the light, to pursue justice, and to give more than you take.

Are all sith the perfection of what is demanded by their order? No  There are those who skirt the guidelines, why...because they are human (or aliens with humanity) and as such have strengths and weaknesses.

To be sith is to accept corruption in exchange for power, to take all that you can get...ever reaching for more.


But to pick apart any one thought out of a statement always leads to failure, it defeats the flow of the whole.

A will defy what I just said because there was a comment that makes a statement that I feel requires to be addressed...


I'd like to point out that Sith are not inherently evil


I must adamantly disagree.  By the very nature of accepting corruption, for any reason, is to invite evil and in equal measure release humanity in kind.  Thus the very act is evil.

We are talking about philosophy and those types of arguments will continue to wage on forever, because it is in our nature to challenge everything and anything.

Looking at the grand scheme...not picking and choosing high and low points, not hand picking examples to offer as debate fodder...Jedi are good and sith are evil...Jedi are light and sith are dark...ebb and flow...push and pull...etc.

And that is ok.

It does not make a real person evil for liking the sith.

It is fantasy and for fun.

But I must stand up and offer counterpoint...not to start a fight but rather to make sure that those who are on the fence are not taken in without hearing both sides with the same degree of enthusiasm.

A vacuum sucks.

Water is wet.

And sith are most assuredly inherently evil.

 :-\

I'm sorry, but I have to disagree on the grounds of what makes a Sith a Sith. The difference between the Jedi, a Dark Jedi, and a Sith is philosophy and the choice to follow that philosophy. Jedi are a group of Force users who follow the Jedi code, refusing to use the Dark side, believing it to be unnatural.
Dark Jedi are a group of Force users who have turned away from the Jedi code. They may use both sides of the Force, but have a reputation of being a tad mentally unstable.
Sith are a group of Force users who follow the Sith Code and use the Dark side.
Let's look at the difference between the Jedi and Sith codes.

There is no emotion, there is peace. Vs Peace is a lie, there is only passion.

The Jedi believe its best to avoid any conflict if possible and if conflict is unavoidable, to keep emotion out of it, white Sith believe that conflict helps further them personally and as a culture, weeding out the weak. Survival of the fittest and all that. Also, as we know, a Sith uses their emotions to fuel their power.

The Jedi code reiterates the importance of enlightening ones self and to avoid conflict.

The Sith code says that the stronger you are, the better you are, the further you will go in life.


Also, one thing I would like to make clear. True Sith do not believe in winning at any cost. In fact, cheating is strongly discouraged because it doesn't prove that you're better than your opponent. It makes the win hollow. Not a true victory.

The Jedi live a very strict lifestyle, living by many rules and regulations, making sure everything was nice and ordered. To quote Darth Bane, "The Jedi shackle themselves in chains of obedience: obedience to the Jedi Council; obedience to their Masters; obedience to the Republic. Those who follow the light side even believe they must submit themselves to the Force. They are merely instruments of its will, slaves to a greater good."

Sith on the other hand, believed that to reach their full potential, they needed to make it so they had nothing to hold them back. Very few Sith ever made it to that stage, but it was something to strive for.

Yeah, I know I went on a little rant here, but I guess my main point is that what it all comes down to is choice and what you believe in. Jedi and Sith are both religions with different points of view about what to do with their strength.  The teaching of the Sith (Or Jedi) are not evil. But that does not mean an evil individual can't use them.

One doesnt work without the other. They balance each other out on a large scale through time like a heartbeat sensor in the hospital. This "pulse" is the natural order and with that no one is really right both are as they are to become whole through each other, to give each other meaning.

I am a big fan of the egyptian principle of Maat i prefer the balance of anything with that i am very observing and calculate as well as feel emotionally so that i might get the most out of my perceptions.

With that i would consider myself grey as well even when all my actions are fuelled with compassion it comes with a fiting angle to the situation present.

This is fascinating, and is helping me in my quest no end!

I don't see the Sith as inherently "evil" either. To say that makes them a one-dimensional, card-board cut-out villains. They are far, far more complex than that.

The Jedi classify the Sith as "evil" because of their search for greater personal power and self-improvement. It is, to my mind, a failing of the Jedi that they focus so much on others that they actually neglect themselves. Take the saber duels (this list is ONLY from the films, not the extended universe);

Qui-gon Jinn vs Darth Maul
Qui-gon Jinn & Obi-wan Kenobi vs Darth Maul
Obi-wan Kenobi & Anakin Skywalker vs Darth Tyranus
Yoda vs Darth Tyranus
Mace Windu & the Council members vs Darth Sidious
Mace Windu vs Darth Sidious
Yoda vs Darth Sidious
Obi-wan Kenobi vs Darth Vader (as Anakin)
Obi-wan Kenobi vs Darth Vader (proper)
Luke Skywalker vs Darth Vader (bespin)
Luke Skywalker vs Darth Vader (Death Star II)

In most of these battles the Jedi "win" in one of two ways, greater numbers, or skirting very, very close to the darkside. (in particular Masters Skywalker and Windu)

What you have to as is why the Sith are so easily able to outmatch the Jedi, & the answer is their focus on themselves. The are important, they MATTER, so the train to be the best that possibly can be; but this is an attitude denied the Jedi. At least, that's how it appears from where I'm sitting.

Also, something that's kinda funny to point out. In the 11 duels that you mentioned, the Jedi activated their sabers first in all but 3 (Darth Maul in both of his and Vader against Obi-wan in Ep 4.) So much for them wanting to take the peaceful route, eh?

Yes indeed, but is that more because the Jedi fear the Sith?

I never did ask, WHO or WHAT are the Fallanassi? lol

A group of female Force users. Jacen learned from them on his trip around the galaxy to understand the Force.

I beg the differ...
Theyr quest for the perfection of themselves are equal since there are champions on both sides. But the morale compass that the Jedi use to GET there is one that seems to take a bit longer but will not consume theyr body and soull in the process.
The dark side is a quick and easy way to power but most dark side users are stuck on that first huge bump through theyr emotions relabeled in forcepower while the jedi dribble step by step on the way growing healthily to the level that the Sith reached before.
When you really only look for power levels of the charackters than it will result after some time of reading/studying in a tie of both.

Yes, it would seem that the Jedi path is considerably slower. Whether it is a more "natural" approach, I haven't made my own mind up on yet. Anakin was a prodigy, a natural, and the Jedi didn't trust him. Darth Maul was also a prodigy, being that he was able to match TWO Jedi; one of whom was a recognised Master. Anakin at that age could not stand up to ONE Sith Lord, let alone two.

Prodigy-ism is an issue for Jedi, because they have a natural mistrust of abilities that are that innate in a student; precisely because they expect it to be a slow journey. Take the story of Mace Windu's lightsaber. It was the product of months of having the same visions, and the Jedi Masters were concerned. They didn't know how to handle that; but his mission to Hurrikane saw a satisfactory conclusion at least.

As for ultimate power levels, I agree, The Dark Side is not stronger, nor is the Light. Yoda could not beat Sidious, but nor could Sidious defeat Yoda. Sure, Sidious' force lightning was strong, but so was Yoda's Tutaminis skill. As duellists they were well matched too, so neither really had an edge. In fact, were the fight conducted on level ground, it could have gone on indefinitely.

A mostly female group of followers of the White Current, specializing in illusions.

Here's the thing about Sith - nothing is wrong with power and self-improvement. Murdering and torturing innocent people is wrong. Using the Dark Side is essentially selling your soul for power. Their lives are miserable and painful because they're never satisfied and using the Dark Side corrupts their bodies. They think only of themselves and care nothing for others.

I have no sympathy for sadistic, narcissistic, psychopathic mass-murderers.

If you're just going by ideals... remember, the ideals are what lead them to slaughter everybody in their paths. The ideals themselves sound cool and a edgy, but they're pretty deplorable too.

Oh, and there's the fact that they're obviously meant to be viewed as the bad guys.

You could learn from the Aing Tii monks.  They will teach everything employed by both the light and dark sides of the Force.  They are beings that seek knowledge for knowledge sake and believe that it is the user of that knowledge that determines whether it will be used for good or evil. 

Their only hatred is toward those that practice slavery.  If you are a slaver (especially of children) the Aing Tii show no mercy.

From the Canon: Only a sith thinks in absolutes...


Try to avoid extremes and look out for whatever appeals to you.
No one here should be able to help you to a great extend since the once that made up theyr believes have a long way behind them to perceive this believes as his.

When you are still on your search and torn between two dogmas then try to experience them by dwelling in them.
Find your path by knowing thyself and be dilligent to perceive this little nuances that try to pull you to your path which you still shall learn on your little time here in this jorney.

There is no better path but only your path.
You must find it yourself since no one can point exactly in that direction through the medium of a forum.
Experience and learn.

Question... Where does it say anywhere that using the Dark side is like selling your soul for power? There are lots of other groups who use the Dark side, besides the Sith, and they don't have the same philosophies as the Sith. From everything we've seen, the Force is supposed to be ballanced, one side not stronger than the other. Yes, using the Dark side can damage a body physically, but so can using the Light side. For example, I give Dorsk 81. He drew too much on the Force and was incinerated from the inside out.  

As for their lives being "miserable and painful"... I can't really agree with this choice of words. I'd say that early on, they have a hard life as they go through the academy. With Jedi, the students start off pretty lax when it comes to rules and restrictions and gain more restrictions as their training progresses. Sith are the opposite. They start off extremely strict in order to weed out the weak students, leaving only the stronger, more promising students to move up the ranks. The farther they get with their training, the more freedoms they have.

As for caring nothing for others, this is not true, either. Love is a very powerful emotion, and Sith do use it. They love their partner fiercely and would do anything to protect them (Not being able to protect them would prove their weakness. That's not an option for them.)

As for the Dark side being a quick and easy way to power, this couldn't be farther from the truth. The Sith academy was a very harsh place and it demanded a lot from students. It's in no way easy or quick to learn the ways of the Sith.  

Spoken by a Jedi, but the statement itself is an absolute, and since it's being said by a Jedi, it makes the statement false

You sounds quite a bit like me in this regard.  I disagree with a lot of what the Jedi teach, but that's not to say I agree with the Sith on everything either.

I view myself (and by extension the character I've created) as a sort of Sith Admiral Thrawn.  He believes fully in his cause, but he's not going to slaughter billions or destroy planets to get what he wants.  He even specifically states that wasting troops in futile battle is unwise.  He's not so arrogant that he can't admit defeat, but he's cunning enough that he doesn't often have to.    


Which is, in itself, and absolute.  And said by multiple Jedi.  So by that definition, most Jedi are also Sith.  Not a terribly good argument, unfortunately.

It doesn't need to be mentioned in canon for the parallels to be obvious. In fact, it would be completely ridiculous for them to say that in canon.


The Light Side doesn't generally harm your body. Extreme circumstances like the one you listed are... well, extreme. They're certainly not the norm, whereas the Dark Side harming the body is an almost universal rule.


I wasn't referring to their training. I was referring to their lives in general and the bodily decay caused by use of the Dark Side. The abusive training is pretty miserable too, but I'm talking about all Sith, not just the ones who went through the same training.


Again, you're referring to a very small time period or group. I'm speaking of Sith universally. Yes, they do love their partner (if they have one, which is unlikely). Yes, they would do anything to prevent the death of their partner. The needs of the few, however, should not outweigh the needs of the many. They would kill thousands to save a single life (Vader, anyone?).


Again. I don't think anyone but you is talking about one period or group.


That always bugged me :-\ I suppose it's just bad writing.

This is becoming a very entertaining discussion 8)

I can't really argue with that; so I'll just hack you to pieces! hehe

Seriously though, you make a good point.

Well they sound like a good possibility then, character-wise. :)

No, slavery (of any kind) is not something I see my character engaging in.

It's a Jedi "take" on the purpose of the Sith; as such it is bias.  



At the risk of sounding like Anakin Skywalker, more lies of the Jedi. Telling younglings that the Dark side makes life "miserable and painful" is a great deterrent; or is thought to be. Darth Sidious was neither in pain, nor miserable prior to his fight with Mace Windu. In fact, his disfigurement was the result of coming into contact with both force lightning and the Hurrikane energies of Mace's lightsaber.


Indeed, and this care extends beyond romantic relationships too. Darth Sidious sense that his apprentice was in danger, and all he could think of was to go to him and help. He had no need to; he had already won!



The Jedi seem very good at stating "fact", yet accusing others of dealing in absolutes. Also, isn't the Jedi code FULL of absolutes?

"There is no emotion, there is Peace" etc. Every tenet of the code is an absolute, from a Jedi perspective.

Agreed. I feel very much that way too; conflicted, searching, finding some truths on both sides, if I'm totally honest. I still feel a strong pull towards ensuring my own safety first though, and I do agree with one sentiment from (of all places) a Bruce Lee film; "Strength makes all other values possible! How many exquisite wonders have left the world for lack of the strength to survive?"

I think a lesson in absolutes versus exclusives is needed...

It should make for interesting and edifying reading, if nothing else.

Possibly, but the phrase "Only a Sith deals in absolutes" is absolutely an absolute.  (yes I phrased it that way on purpose  ;) )

First, it looks like you have a very narrow point of view on the Sith. You say you're talking about "All" Sith. Again. that's generalizing. That would be like saying all Christians are evil or all Pagans are evil. It just doesn't work. I'm not talking about just one time period. I'm talking about pretty much everything before and after the Rule of 2.  As for the Dark side causing people to decay, again, this has no proof. Vergere theorized that the Force was a sentient entity and the damage to the body was caused by negative intent.
Also, Count Dooku used the Dark side for a decade, showing no damage to his body. The Emperor showed no damage to his body until his battle with Windu, and that damage was NOT caused by the Emperor using the Force, but by the attack being reflected back at him. Darth Plagueis plat out says he has no idea if the Dark side power affects people the same way.
I don't understand the first comment you made though. You say that it would be ridiculous to have them flat out say that the Sith are evil because it would be to obvious. That kind of seems backward to me. During all 6 movies, we see the work of 1 main Sith and his apprentice who follows his orders. The Emperor was an evil man., but that doesn't mean his apprentices were evil. Dooku wanted to help oppressed systems that he felt the Jedi had turned their back on. Vader, to save his wife and child. Same with Jacen (Not in the movies, but a Sith Lord). So out of the 5 Sith we see here, 3 of them are not evil. They have good intentions and an evil master. Anakin had my favorite quote regarding this entire discussion. "From my point of view, the Jedi are evil"

 The Rule of 2 made it so most the Sith were dead, in hiding, or isolated from the rest of the galaxy. That is why I don't like to include the Rule of 2 era in this. We only get a very narrow view of the Sith during the Rule of 2.
(Yes, this is a very entertaining discussion. Lol)

You were only using about Sith Academy students to counter my argument. That certainly isn't everything.


Dark side users became more powerful as their physical bodies slowly decayed. (Taken from Wookieepedia)

Also, Vergere only suggested that because she was saying there aren't actually different sides of the Force, so it isn't applicable in this discussion.


Please read it again. That's not what I said. Not even close. I said it would be ridiculous for them to compare using the Dark Side to selling your soul in canon, since that would be comparing a canon decision to an out-of-universe concept.

It had nothing to do with the Sith being called evil. I'm honestly not sure where you got that.


I'm not sure how any of this is relevant, but it's still pretty wrong. First off, that's only four Sith, not five, but that isn't important.

Dooku wasn't that evil, I'll give you that.

Vader killed thousands to save one (who died anyway).

That's evil.

Caedus did the same.


The Rule of Two cannot be ignored. You're also ignoring the Rule of One and probably the Lost Tribe.

Yes, I would very much enjoy a clarification on this point.

First, I re-read "It doesn't need to be mentioned in canon for the parallels to be obvious. In fact, it would be completely ridiculous for them to say that in canon." and I admit I read it wrong the first time.
Second, "Only those that devoted almost all of their being to the dark side, such as Darth Sidious, would have their appearance radically altered.[9] It should be noted that Sidious's most drastic physical alterations occurred during the lightsaber duel with Jedi Master Mace Windu; Windu having used his own lightsaber to deflect Sidious's Force lightning causing the uncontrolled energy to radically alter Sidious's physical features" (Like yours, also taken from Wookieepedia)
Third, you say Vader was evil because he killed thousands out of love. Kyp Durron killed BILLIONS out of revenge and he is a Jedi Master, and not considered evil.
Fourth, Talking about the Sith academy is not really limiting the amount of Sith I'm talking about. The Sith Academy was running more than 6,000 years before the Rule of 2. (That's a lot of Sith)
Fifth, 5 Sith. The Emperor, Maul, Dooku, Anakin, and Jacen. The last 3 I can't call evil. They may have done some bad things, but they are not evil.

Fair enough, although it still says that their appearances would be radically altered.


He was evil at the time, and people (in-universe) still hate him for it. He will never redeem himself.

Vader's actions and commands led to deaths of billions as well, if not trillions. I was only referring to his actions in ROTS.

Also, I never implied that the Jedi aren't evil. I hate them too.


Talking about one group/time instead of all groups/times is limiting. There is absolutely no way that it isn't limiting.


I see now. When you said "out of the 5 Sith we see here", it made me think that "here" was your post, which only mentioned four Sith.


Let's see.

Dooku was pretty cool, for a Sith.

Vader killed billions of people, some to try to save one person and the rest because she died.

Caedus did almost the same to ensure that his daughter wouldn't become a Sith.

I can't see how you don't view that as evil. If that's truly your moral standpoint then this discussion is pointless because you won't view anyone as evil.

On that note, I think we're just going in circles (or triangles? Whichever you prefer) so it's becoming pointless.

Have a nice day.

Evil at the time?  Honestly, that sound like a cop out to me. You are saying Vader was evil, yet he had a change of heart before he died, but you're not making the same argument for him. As I've said. I believe the Emperor was an evil person. Vader, Dooku, and Jacen are not evil, but they did evil things with good intentions. (Maul had a hatred of Jedi and was following orders. I'd say he'd be more chaotic neutral than anything) As you can see, there are individual "People" I think are evil. But to say the entire group of people are evil is just wrong (And dealing in absolutes, something that we've already talked about. Heh.)

How is that a cop out? Also, having a change of heart doesn't magically erase all of your past sins. He couldn't redeem himself because scars run deep, and people aren't likely to forget about his path of destruction. He will always be evil in the eyes of most people, even if he wasn't technically evil in his final moments.

The whole 'Only a Sith...' thing can just be recognition that, well, only Sith deal in absolutes. Consider that Obi-Wan was "The Negotiator", while Anakin killed dozens of Jedi and younglings to save one woman, and then when that didn't work out...

Sith are not known for compromises. Everything they do, they seek to turn to their advantage in some way. Everything is used to serve their ultimate goal. Are all Sith genocidal maniacs? No. Are all Sith ruthless and willing to sacrifice anything to further their goals? The evidence certainly points towards yes.

Your argument that Vader isn't/wasn't evil would be solid if it weren't for the fact that after his love, the person he was trying to save, had died, he continued to do awful things and make people suffer.  It took watching his son give in to the Dark Side during their final duel for him to realize just what his original rationalization had turned him into.  Justifying it by saying "I'm only using the Dark Side to protect someone" doesn't make it intrinsically better, nor does it make him "not evil."  The mere notion of murdering children for any reason is universally considered evil, and the fact that he did so without hesitation is a valid moral reason to condemn him.

I can agree that Dooku wasn't necessarily evil, but I would call him somewhat misguided, personally.
I have to disagree with people calling the Jedi evil.  Then again, I don't see the Jedi the way a lot of people on the internet do -- my interpretation is more of a parellel to Zen ideals, as opposed to the wildly-differing presentations throughout the various Star Wars media.

Also, points to both James and THoD.  Both good posts.

P.S. I'm just going to keep calling you Thod.  :)

That is a really good point. Point!


Thank you :)

Haha, sounds good to me. I've been given a ton of nicknames here.

How the hell is that a cop out?

Forgive the outburst, but that's ridiculous.

Both he and Vader were evil while they were doing evil things, but later turned back to the Light. That doesn't erase anything and I never said it did.


Doing evil things makes one evil.

Simple as that.

Vader wanted to save his wife. Cool.

He killed thousands and later killed billions. Evil.

Caedus wanted to prevent a dark vision from coming true. Cool.

Caedus killed millions. Evil.

Hitler wanted his country to thrive. Cool.

I think you get the point.

Evil actions make you evil. The End.

Exclusives vs. Absolutes
Do Sith Deal in Absolutes or Exclusives?

Absolutes can be defined in part as being:

complete; not mixed; outright; free from restriction or limitation; not limited in any way: absolute command; unrestrained; viewed independently; not comparative or relative; ultimate; intrinsic; something that is not dependent upon external conditions for existence or for its specific nature, size, etc.; something that is free from any restriction or condition.

I think that the main points that leap out at me are these: something that is not dependent upon external conditions for existence or for its specific nature, size, etc.; something that is free from any restriction or condition.

So first, is the statement, “Only Sith deal in absolutes,” an absolute statement? Is the statement dependent on ANYTHING for its specific nature? Or is it free from any restriction or condition?

Looking at the broader definition, is the statement free from restriction and unlimited? It seems to me that the statement is, by its very nature, restrictive.

Keep in mind that it states that “ONLY Sith deal in absolutes”. The fact that it is ONLY Sith means that there is a restriction to the statement; that you must be Sith to deal in absolutes.

In order for the statement to be an absolute statement, Obi-Wan would have had to say, “Everyone deals in absolutes,” or even, “Sith deal in absolutes”. That way, no restriction is put on who is dealing with absolutes, and it produces an absolute statement.



Now, with Absolutes defined, let’s move on to Exclusives.

Exclusives can be defined in part as:

not admitting of something else; incompatible: mutually exclusive plans of action. Omitting from consideration or account; limited to the object or objects designated; shutting out all others from a part or share
So, an exclusive statement is something that is not admitting of anything else, is limited to what is designated, and shuts out all others. In order for something to be exclusive, by nature, it must be restrictive.

Basically, if something is exclusive, it is very narrow and there is no room for an alternate option.

The statement, “ONLY Sith deal in absolutes,” is exclusive by that definition. The reason is that it is a very restrictive, narrow statement. Rather than absolutes being something used by all people, or even several groups of people, it is restricted to the Sith (in Obi-Wan’s statement).



Now, before any final note is made, let us examine Anakin’s statement that led to Obi-Wan’s Exclusive statement.

Anakin said, “If you're not with me, then you are my enemy.”

When we look at that statement by the same rules as we used for Obi-Wan’s, we have to ask:

Is it an Absolute Statement? Is the statement something that is not dependent upon external conditions for existence or for its specific nature, size, etc.?

Or is it an Exclusive Statement? Is it something that is not admitting of anything else, is limited to what is designated, and shuts out all others; something that is restrictive; very narrow with no room for an alternate option?

It seems to me that Anakin’s statement is dependent upon Obi-Wan’s decision. Basically, the young Vader gives Obi-Wan a choice; there IS room for an alternate option. That means that his statement is NOT Exclusive in nature. It also cannot be an Absolute Statement because it is dependent upon Obi-Wan’s choice.



Where does that leave us? Obi-Wan’s statement was not an Absolute…then again, neither was Anakin’s. Neither of the statements fit what is needed to be called an Absolute Statement.

Now, before anyone starts asking, “But why did Obi-Wan call it an Absolute if it wasn’t,” I have one, simple answer for you.

You ready for it?

Are you sure?

Brace yourself.

Here it comes.

BAD WRITING!!

That’s all that this exchange is according to the English language. Neither statement is an Absolute and one of them isn’t even Exclusive. Good ol’ Uncle George screwed up there, and that’s all there is.

If you still want to argue the merits of the Sith vs. the Jedi, that’s another thing entirely. You can’t use the above statement as anything other than an example of bad writing, and not understanding the English language.


I am still of the opinion that (by and large) the Sith are evil and the Jedi are good. There will always be exceptions, reasons for actions, bad (or good) choices, and the option for redemption or falling. That’s what makes good storytelling.

With all that said though, keep in mind the terms used for the two acts…Jedi who become Sith “fall to the Dark Side”…Sith who become Jedi “are redeemed”. Though you may not agree with what is written, or my thoughts, the simple fact of the matter is that the Jedi are intended to be the “good guys” and the Sith are intended to be the “bad guys”.

Nothing changes what Uncle George originally intended other than Uncle George himself.


I hope that this has been helpful and interesting to anyone who bothered to read it all the way through.

TL;DR version, BAD WRITING! NEITHER ARE ABSOLUTE STATEMENTS! EAT PIE!

All my points are belong to you. Great post, Ben, very insightful too.

DARTH sidious didnt receive his Deformation s during the fight.
He used a old sithalchemy camouflage to hide his powerful dark side aura from the jedis rjght before him as well as his hixeous face. DDuring his excessive use of lightning this cloak was dispelled and hjs true face was shown.
He got hurt during the process of course but the deformations begin immediately after giving in completely to the  dark side. Tyrannus was on the edge while you could see mauls foul teeth in most of his scenes.
ASsaj wasnt powerful enough for deformations yet.

I'm sorry but from where did you get the idea that Sidious was deformed and cloaking himself, and that excessive effort plus injury caused him to "decloak"? I'm afraid that is the most ludicrous idea I've yet heard. If you watch the scene carefully you can see the lightning licking around his face and deforming him as it goes.

Now OK, if "Uncle George" says otherwise, we have to accept it, albeit grudgingly in this case as I think it's a dumb explanation where a far more sensible explanation is readily at hand.

As for Tyranus, again, I don't really see what you are doing. He was in his 80s, arthritic, but still stronger than Obi-wan Kenobi and Anakin Skywalker, until Anakin allowed hate and rage to flow through him.

As we have got into the territory of crazy non-canon explanations of things, are you ready for another one?

Ready?

Here goes!

"In the final fight between Tyranus and Vader, Sidious (who is sat a few feet away) uses his ability to channel the Dark Side to artificially increase Vader's reflexes and destructive potential as a way to get rid of Tyranus; whom Sidious sees as warn-out, past his best and a stop-gap apprentice."

As noted this is an angry loop...the most difficult thing in reference to this topic is to convince the opposing side that they are wrong and you are right.

Again pulling up specific examples to make point without looking at the whole is watching the world go by through a microscope...difficult to see the big picture.

Just for grins I looked up Kyp Durron as I had no idea who he was.  Yes he committed the atrocities as noted but...and it is a big butt...he was corrupted by the spirit of the Dark Lord of the Sith Exar Kun.

It is often thrown up as a Jedi are evil and unjust because Mace was willing to cut down prune face but where is the same consideration for Order 66?

In the end in the grand scheme, looking at the whole, the idea of defending sith beyond being interesting villains...and they are villains, by design...the idea of hero worship to those who do more harm and good for whatever initial reason is odd at the least.

Now I appreciate an evil character, sith included...certainly more now than a couple years ago...they are colorful and powerful...in a video game that sounds great.  

I did not grow up playing star wars video games that allowed players to be the bad guys, sith and dark jedi, slicing and dicing for power ups...so this is an aspect that is lost on me.

I grew up with Vader torturing his daughter, cutting off his son's hand in an effort to give him to the guy who enslaved him in turn, and later (earlier) we see Annie behaving shall we say...badly...slaughtering children, women and kids in the desert, force choking his pregnant wife, and trying to kill his best friend and father figure.

I like Vader...he makes a great villain...iconic.  Darth Vader : sith : villain : evil

If you like the sith then stand up and be counted!  But there is no reason to candy coat their actions and attitudes, let them shine for the reasons they should shine for...being powerful, intriguing, tortured, and whatever other related reason you like...but there is no need to pretend they are nice, decent, or heroic.  

Jedi are patterned after feudal Samurai.  This is clear.  Later Uncle Lucas added the Monk aspect also.  Does this mean that all samurai were always honorable, just, and knightly...absolutely not.  There are many tales of evil deeds, injustice, cruelty, and layers of corruption...which is the foundation of sith.  

A story I read years ago, translated from Japanese, a story of a young samurai of clan Honda...the head of the clan had been poisoned, the family was fleeing from an assault to the main house, Yoshida leads the wife and children away through a back gate across a small bridge, they are overtaken by a large force and the young samurai stand his ground on the bridge...not for any reason other than it was his duty and honor to serve others...he stood and died, but not before turning away dozens and leaving the others terrified that he was still alive on the bridge...later to find that he kept standing due to the arrows and spears pinning him up...he slew a handful that tried to cross through the process of the event.

This is Jedi.

Uncle Lucas read stories like this and developed a foundation.  He took the hard nosed culture with a serious outlook towards just about everything...tradition and honor.  

Nearly any story or character can be related to out of context and spun how ever you like.

The most famous Earth villain was a decent painter with real potential for fine art...still an evil bass'tard no matter how you look at it.

Pruneface was a villain...no other way to look at it...evil...power hungry...black hearted.

So rather than beat a dead horse in an effort to debate a subject that can not ever be won, may I offer that we just appreciate the characters we like for whatever reason and not look to defend them with a hard candy shell?


(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b163/nametnom/66467df5.jpg)

Hello Sir!
Please dont apologize for your eagerness to gather up information to match up your own. I think that is a very good attitude. A learner by heart you may say.
I have this information from the official Star Wars Roleplaying game which is sanctioned by GL and there is a old force technique in the Alchemy pass that say so. As well as pointed this exact moment out where sidious was fighting mace.
This is the same technique that he used to alter his force appeareance to powerhouses like the perceptive Yoda himself while standing merely 2 meters away from him.
Deception is the greatest asset of the dark Side Sidious sayed once.
I can gather more details but im sure it is in the Dark Side Source Book.

My best wishes.

Was that a kind of sarcasm or do you really read that somewhere Darth Arkanus?

So i finally found the first part of what i was reffering before and i write it down word for word so that you may benefit from that intel. :

"While the Dark Side offers a quick path to power for those who feel the flow of the force, it also extracts a high price from those who dipinto the well too frequently. This price takes the form of a long term withering of the charackters physical attributes. Early in a darksiders career, the ratio of power to negative effect runs in favor to the power the dark side provides. Each time a force-sensitive charackter calls on the dark side, however the urge to again feel the electric flow of power grows stronger. It becomes easier to gain Dark Side Points, to fall deeper and deeper into the darkness . In the middle stages of a charackters career as the charackter becomes first tainted and then dark in nature, the power the dark side provides begins to collect what is owed to it. With great effort, a balance can be attained for a while. As a charackter reaches higher levels the long term effects of dark side use begin to show. The charackter grows weaker in body, all the while growing stronger and stronger in the dark side of the force. Eventually, the darksiders body begins to fail as it is corrupted and rotted away by the darkness and evil flowing through it."

The Dark Side Soucebook Page 39

Very well, it's canon, so must be very grudgingly accepted. I still say that it is a dumb cop out though, to give the Dark side a "price". What is the point of turning to the dark side to increase your personal power, only to have your greatest asset, your body, withered and destroyed by the very thing you seek out to make you more powerful?

My own, personal, take on things is that only certain Dark side abilities cause bodily damage; the main one being force lightning. The reason, I believe, is because to wield so much destructive energy through the body too often begins to show just how frail the flesh form really is! It is, to use the Jedi's Crystal Code analogy, like overloading your saber crystal. You can do it a few times, perhaps with only minor damage; the odd fracture here and there. But do it too often and you risk shattering your crystal completely! So too I believe it is with the more destructive powers.

As for my suggestion of Sidious helping Vader against Tyranus, approximately 1 part sarcasm, to 4 parts genuine thought!

If you like I can give you more information on the withering process or would you like to just stop learning about the “canon” now and keep your momentary perception of it? Both would be absolutely fine since I believe that you should go with what you feel good with.

Ah I see. I suggested as much but thank you for pointing that out!
Well Sidious already had known the most outcomes since at that time he had a group of Dark Side Seers at his command which knew the most important points in time in Sidious timeline. Basicly he was a step ahead of everyone all the time.
So he didn’t need to use any dark side power which in turn would have unmasked him prematurely before Anakin as a Force practitioner.

You can read it in a whole Book surrounding that story. When im home I can pm you the name if interested.

If I can assist you any further then I would be glad to share.

Best wishes

Kitra

And thus the baseline of the issues at hand.

Opinions and what we would like it to be.

The dark side corrupts.

Falling back on the video games and fringe EU, it leaves fans with confusing ideas of the whole.  Certainly a dark sider who never harmed anyone and just researched the dark side would not be as at risk for corruption, but this is not the guy or girl wielding wizbang lightning, dominating hundreds of minds, and yanking out souls.

It is the reality of the fantasy, set in stone, the dark side corrupts.

Jedi attempt to avoid corruption.

The sith greedily accept corruption.

Grey play hot potato with corruption :)

Ultimately, we all must accept our fundamental natures.....we can do no other.

And thus a rung up the ladder of enlightenment  :D

I am a slow learner though. hehe

So we all may be patient teachers of what we share and you deem worthy to know. :)

How can you be so sure?

Wow. I'm gone for a day and there's lots of new good stuff. I like the passages from the books, and I read up on the "Mask" ability, and you're correct about several things about it. The skill was created for the board game.

"The "Mask" ability was proposed by the Star Wars Roleplaying Game as a method of resolving the debate behind Palpatine's transfiguration during his battle with the Jedi Order. Sources had suggested that Palpatine had been hiding his true features until the battle, and when combined with the damage from the lightning, the result was the disfiguration seen on-screen." (Taken from wookieepedia)

The article does go on to say, however that "It is said that Palpatine, a master at Sith alchemy, may have used this technique in order to conceal his appearance from the people of the Republic and present a more appealing facade. If he did, his encounter with Mace Windu and several other Jedi Masters changed that, when Mace reflected Palpatine's lightning blast back at him, disfiguring the Sith Lord's face."

It says "may have" and "If he did" Nothing canon says that he in fact did use it while the comic "Sithisis" says that he was devoured by a Sith Wyrm and that by killing the Wyrm from the inside, he is able to alter his physical form.

On the subject that Dark side corrupts, again, mater of choice. One would have to choose to abuse the Force. Also, as I posted before, rarely is anyone physically changed by the Force.
" Darth Tyranus and Galen Marek, for example, did not suffer any of the physical degeneration of the dark side, and their eyes only assumed the yellow hue during moments of anger.[24][25] Luke Skywalker suffered none of these effects during his brief bout of intense anger that allowed him to disarm Darth Vader, nor did Kyle Katarn during either of the times that he was (at least partially) driven by the dark side against Jerec and later Desann" (Taken from wookieepedia)

"It should be noted that Sidious's most drastic physical alterations occurred during the lightsaber duel with Jedi Master Mace Windu; Windu having used his own lightsaber to deflect Sidious's Force lightning causing the uncontrolled energy to radically alter Sidious's physical features." (Taken from wookieepedia)
"The worst case of this transformation would be Darth Nihilus, who not only was completely consumed by the dark side mentally but also physically. He had become a living entity of the dark side of the Force and uncaring of all life." (Taken from wookieepedia)  What this says to me is that it may break down the body, but what you become after is a physical representation of the Force, so it's not really that your body is destroyed over time, you just become one with the Force.

A theory I have, if you'll allow me. It is said that the Dark side destroys the body of the user over time. I could argue that so does the Light side of the Force. But instead of taking a little piece each time you use it, the Light side waits until you're finished (Dead) and then takes it all at once. And that is why stronger Jedi Masters vanish when they die.

About Sith being evil, the last thing I will say about it is one of my favorite quotes. "Evil is a word used by the ignorant and the weak. The dark side is about survival. It's about unleashing your inner power. It glorifies the strength of the individual."
―Darth Zannah

Yes, a theory I completely agree with. The only fly in that ointment is it points to the likes of Qui-gon Jinn being a lesser powered Master than Yoda and Obi-wan Kenobi. That in no way disproves the idea though.


I really, REALLY like this! It HAS to be worth some Darkside points!

It's worth dark side points, but I have to admit I disagree with that quote on several levels, that I don't really have time to get into right now.

1. I shouldn't even have to say why that first sentence is dumb.

2. Survival? Thats like saying that everyone is out to get you and that you can't trust anyone, which is wrong.

3. Yeah, thats all fine and dandy, but the way that they unleash their inner power is evil.

4. Oh yeah, thats totally a good thing, giving people an ego boost and making them arrogant.

That's where you and I disagree Rel :) Friendly disagreement, but disagreement nonetheless. Without getting too much into real world philosophy, it is the constant struggle against our nature, the constant effort to be more than we are, that exemplifies the Jedi in my mind. Rather than being vengeful or petty (as is in our nature), they seek to better themselves. Then again, that argument is based heavily against the Roman Stoic idea of accepting nature as unchangeable...

Ben...I was being nice :)

Thinking that enlightenment could be granted even in measure over an interweb debate lol.


The Dalai Lama stops by a hot dog vendor and says he will be one with everything  :D




Whew...I want to leave this one alone because it is your favorite, but on the other hand I just gotta say something.

On the positive side that is a great quote for a villain.

On the negative side that is a crazy quote for a regular person  :(

I had a full breakdown of the quote but it ended up being a lot meaner than I would have ever intended...so I deleted it.

The quote is perfect for representing the sith...in all that that entails.

:)

Ah, my misunderstanding. Sorry about that! :)

You don't have to worry about being mean. This is an online discussion and I'm not the type of person to get butthurt over someone else's opinion. So, no worries. And that goes for everyone involved in this topic. What the quote means is that the Jedi call the Sith and the Dark side evil because they don't understand the Dark side and refuse to learn what it's about.  Light and Dark... Good and Evil... You know, what it really comes down to is "They are different than me, they believe something different than what I do, I don't understand them. They should be destroyed." Jedi have hunted down and destroyed the Sith. Sith have hunted down and destroyed Jedi.

"Destroy the Sith, we must." -Yoda
"We must move quickly. The Jedi are relentless. If they are not all destroyed, it will be civil war without end."
―Palpatine

I admit that I really enjoy this conversation as well and I am looking forward to more of this exchanging ideas in the near future as well.
As for this part you got to admit that some kind “Force Mask” was in place or else  yoda as well as every other member of the Jedi Council would have spotted Sidious from the beginning. In a RPG Storyteller Rulebook its always a if and when as well as possibly and maybe since it is a unspoken rule that there are only the rules the gamemaster seems fit so the writers encourage all fantasys with this “maybe´s”.

Even when it may seem differently atm I am not at all someone who likes the idea of unmovable facts of fantasy I love it to play around with them as well as most of the other user enjoy and practice it here. I am just sharing what I was obliged to read in the last decade of Star Wars Roleplaying and I am always very glad to share the “lore” which  has been printed down by Lucas Arts and his Partners.


The theory you have shared is very interesting so I thank you for this idea.
Since the Dark Side is able to kill a practitioner and the light side is able to prolong the life “naturally” I would rather think of it a bit differently.
The absorption into the force is for me more like the total enlightment where the Jedi sheds his mortal shell and becomes a being of pure energy which has the ability to share glimpses of its wisdom to the ones on which destiny heeds a higher purpose to bring peace and harmony, wisdom and friendship as well as the possibility of growth instead of any egocentric actions.

The Dark Side can prolong the life expotentially as well (sorry was that written right? ^^) but only to the ends of the practitioners own sake and lust for power and neverending rulership over his victims since he accepts no equals.


"Evil is a word used by the ignorant and the weak. The dark side is about survival. It's about unleashing your inner power. It glorifies the strength of the individual."
―Darth Zannah

Hmpf- I read Rule of the jungle, Eat or get eaten, only rely on yourself, observe everyone who may be a threat.

Nah I don’t want to life like an animal…
For me and my moral compass there are helpful and harmful acts of thought (which most often becomes actions)

BUT!!!!! I believe we are drifting away from fiction into real life and in real life lets face it everyone just wants their peace and freedom with the space compassionately granted by others who are near to express oneself through his individual spleens ;)

Uff that was longer than I thought thank you for bearing with me the whole post!

My best wishes for you!

Hmm i never saw a sith make a good deed to anyone but himself as well as i think that treachery and assassination can not be compared to the will to save innocents and maintain the freedom of the individual on all planets in the Galaxy through protection of the ones who are willing to accept the guardians of light.
The Jedis understand the Sith in what they leave behind them... Slaves, War, suffering, treachery, Hate, Fear and the goal to extiguish the compassion of every individual.
Just for example: Aliens are highly unwelcome in the times of the empire only humans were allowed to hold higher titles of any kind. Reminds me of someone in the german history who wanted to rule everything through superiour warfare to force his understanding of a ruler class species upon others i dare to say. The comparability is frightning... :(

"Yes, The Emperor was a HUGE xenophobe. Not only that, but he was also a sexist. Darth Vectivus, on the other hand, was a good person. Here's a quote from Legacy of the Force: Betrayal   "Never heard of him."
"That's because he did no evil. He didn't attempt to conquer the galaxy, try to wipe out the population of a star system, or start an all-out war with the Jedi. He just existed, learned. Died of old age, surrounded by family and friends."
―Lumiya discusses Darth Vectivus' character with Jacen Solo

This is one exception. Can you count another? ;)
I believe (correct me if im wrong) only 2 individuals are known to be able to resist the dark urges to such an extend.
And both come from the legacy line. Cade Skywalker and Darth Vectivus.
Luke Skywalkers ability to use Dark Side techniques are something different which is stated in the books about that story.

Fixed that for ya!

:D

One could argue Vestara Khai, but quite frankly, there is just nowhere near the number of Sith that there are Jedi. I could make a much longer list of Jedi who used the Dark side, "redeemed themselves" and continued being Jedi. Many Jedi, it seems, cheat at being a Jedi by giving into the Dark side when it benefits them, but that's okay. They're still Jedi at heart so it doesn't count.

Quite so yes. I believe the stories about redeemed former friends sell better... ^^
Tragedy sells... ;)

Erm, one point about xenophobia and non-humans rising to high rank. Palpatine was from Naboo, so you could argue that his xenophobia is ingrained in his society (that's what causes the problems with the Gungans, until war forces them to get over themselves!) In that respect, the actions of the Sith have unexpected GOOD consequences! lol

But back to Palpatine's xenophobia, explain Grand Admiral Thrawn then. He's got BLUE skin for goodness sake!!! He surely isn't human.

"He is also the last Grand Admiral promoted by the Emperor; he earns the rank because of his instrumental role in stopping Grand Admiral Zaarin's attempted coup, receiving the late Zaarin's rank and position as a reward." (Taken from wookieepedia)  Also, he was given his first commission by Captain Parck, not the Emperor.

The emperors values a good tool but only to the extend where it is useful to him.
But his overall politic (when you find the time to look into that) is Anti- Alien to the extend of several tryed but failed genocids of Species other than human.

Yes, I'd very much like to see what Rel says about this guy.

In your replys I would be more interested in your opinion Rogueleader. :)
And who is this Rel you are talking about?

Laters

(clipped)

Though a proponent of the dark side, Darth Vectivus' self-discipline and preexisting code of ethics allowed him to remain fair and balanced without succumbing to the lure of power which plagued many of the Sith Lords who preceded him. He eventually returned to the mine and maintained a plentiful existence in the company of friends and loved ones alike.

(clipped)


This is an interesting one for sure.  It goes a long way to consider the basics of humanity and the length and breadth of how we can behave or misbehave.

Some Jedi push the limits by not conforming to all the aspects as the Council would prefer...some sith also push the same limits the other way.

People are people and have the potential for that full range.

Although there is more opportunity to be a bit rough around the edges in the Jedi order then generally found within the sith order to behave in a manner such as Darth Vectivus...one could easily see a calm non-aggressive sith becoming a target of a power hungry underling.

But for sure he is an exception to the rule, keeping the corruption in check...if there were more of his example that would make for an interesting turn in the whole Jedi and sith relations.

:D

PS
I am the Rel in question  ;)

Ah i see then Hello Rel! :)

I was just hoping for more individual statements except the "what would Mr. X think about that".
May i be assured that you know what i meant?

For a Sith it was the only option to survive with that attitude. In the non Sith environment he was able to hold his balance since he was away from the evil Manipulations of his order.
Yet would he have stayed with the Sith as a whole in an academy or warcenter he would have had no other chance then to indulge in evil or be overthrown within the blink of an eye by an powerhungry "eviler" underling or counterpart in strength to gain his powerbase.

Yes no worries about mis or re directs from me ;)

The potential for a sith who is tolerant and accepting is just as possible as a Jedi who has to reign in the urges to behave badly...though in most cases both examples would be at risk of sanctions from their respective orders.

Jedi seem to juggle with potential of using power as sith seem to want to juggle 10 flaming balls before learning to juggle any...complacency or recklessness.

I am of the mind that use if the force is much like pouring water into a container...both Jedi and sith want the container full so to better manage their place in their orders but the Jedi direct the use of a funnel so as not to spill and sith direct the dump lots over the container disregarding the excess that misses the mark.

Jedi fill their containers at a measured pace, some have larger containers and larger funnels.

The sith fill their containers in a rush of forced effort.

Both at the core know the "water" is energy and energy changes state if manipulated in certain ways...hence the body corruption seen in some sith...the excess "burned" them  ;)

The pouring water allegory lacks the quality of how to be able to use the force.
Someone with a lot of forceability/water may not be as powerful with someone lesser talented since the experience and focus is a quality of the outcome as well.
At least I would rather not use it to explain this theme.

I had no worries. I wasn’t sure if I could make myself clear enough since English is not my mothers tongue.

As well as I believe that most Jedis need to be trained in patience as well.
A lot of students had been known to indulge to heavily in their newfound / newly trained powers and needed the strong support of the teacher in order to not overdo themselves. They are normal human beings as well juggling with a power quite extraordinary.

Das Wasser-Beispiel ist viel zu einfach, um die Kraft zu beschreiben, die mehr Gestalt  :)

The force is a mystery and hard to make simple, the water pouring aspect was just considering an act of doing something compared to the whole of learning to use the force.

Oh are you experenced in the german language? Or did you just wanted to do me a favor?
Either way i smiled. :)

And i can see where you tryed to use simplicity to bestow a basic of understanind but since we got no total newcomers in the aspect of the force i believe we can go deeper and explain passages which are unclear in the process.

Kitra

Lol mein Deutsch ist einfach wie ein kind am besten  :)

I have family in Germany and took some German for my required second language before switching to French...but I check my spelling before I send...hopefully I do not butcher the language too much  :D

Agreed on the more advanced force considerations...just remind those reading your posts, when things start getting hot, that English is not your first language...just in case there are some misunderstanding lol.

Happens sometimes in these forums. Certain members, including Relmeob and eerock, sometimes try to write to people from around the world in their native languages. The end result is sometimes several hovercrafts worth of eels, but it's fun.

But there are a few simple aspects that are set in stone...Uncle Lucas followed a handful of established cultural and historical points of interest.  

The Jedi represent good, justice, and selflessness.

The sith represent evil, corruption, and selfishness
From Relmeob quote on May 20th


This may be a difference in viewing art, but I could care less what Uncle Lucas says he meant to say, or what he says he meant. The author creates the work of art, its viewers/readers define what he created.

You don't ask Vonnegut or Harper Lee or Mozart what they meant to create, because what they meant to create doesn't matter. What matters is what they did create. So if Lucas said he meant something that's great. Marx said he wasn't a Marxist and Camu said he wasn't an existientalist, while he is the second most famous existientalist writer of all time. I can say the RP character I created is supposed to be a good guy that doesn't change the fact he is corrupt self serving and manipulitive.

I haven't read too far into the EU so I'll keep this to the highest cannon, but in that what Lucas has looked over, what have the Jedi done to show that they represent good, justice and selflessness? The Sith I think Lucas did a decent job as representing them as you said, but he failed to do that with the Jedi?

Your german is understandable if the context is known ^^
If I should be in a situation where someone might get hot than I might do so.
Yet I always try to be as diplomatic as possible in all my replys.
We are all here to learn and have fun aren’t we. :)

The good and justice that the Jedi have provided is a set measure.  With the day to day job of the Jedi being a cog in a greater machine of effort towards a goal of justice through honesty and ethical support of the galactic citizenry, via the senate.

So if you are looking for an overflowing well of examples of goodness, well I suspect the stories of...negotiations going well, rescues without incident, meditations, bad guys coming along peacefully, etc. which one would assume is the daily grind of the majority of the Jedi Order membership...these stories would be boring and difficult to dress up for movies and books.

It is when these mundane peaceful actions go awry that a story becomes potentially exciting.

This is not a cop out by any means, I come from a career of service with the military and drug interdiction so I know the mundane daily aspect...for example 20yrs later if you ask a sailor about his trip to Hong Kong I doubt the stories of how he did his job without issue would rarely pop up but the tales of getting lost in the Wan Chai street market or waking up with a new tattoo and a monkey would gain loads of attention.

I will offer a comic book analogy...a sith-like character...The Punisher...driven by grief and fueled by vengeance...his tools include all manner of items that offer nothing but deadly force...is he a hero?  No  He is a murder and a criminal...but he just kills badguys...so he is doing something good by doing something bad.  Is he typical of a villain? No  He still chooses to act like the honorable man he was before the fall, when he can manage it depending on the situation.  Badguys hate him. 

Now the Joker...he is about as sith as it gets, the chaos aspect of sith.

And on and on.

Back on topic...the mundane daily grind of being good, honest, and general all around fine folk would be far too boring for the most part to focus beyond "they are good guys".

An engineer builds a thousand bridges, but we only want to hear about the one that fell.

That sort of thing.

:D

I believe that it is utterly clear through all 6 Movies that the Jedis are a force of good in the galaxy and since my little cousin is able to perceive that as well i would like to question your angle of view while asking your question. Do you think that the Sith has to much opportunity to show that they are evil impersonated while the jedi are always struggling to fight them off and with that less showing a peaceful monklike life or are you more interested in the facts of the good deeds jedis made throughout this massive story?

In either way i would like to share my experiences since ive read nearly any book that came out yet and may find many good deeds throughout not only movies but comics, books and roleplaying games as well.

My best wishes.

Kitra

I was making another example defending the ideal of Jedi are good and sith are evil.

There are a handful of sith friendly forumites that would prefer that sith just be cool characters, with neato powers, who do not have to follow the rules, and do what they want...just like the video games.

And that is ok.

It is all in fun.

 ;D

Absolutely true. Most people are into the rebellious unleashed individual without rules and godlike powers and when they are bestowed with tragic evil out of a quest for more power it seems to be even more appealing. But in real live i dont think that anyone would enjoy a lifestyle as a true sith. Its to violent without any chance of pasttime activity as well as unforgiving and unthankful and when you just think of that properties as a new job offer i believe anyone would instantly say NO! at least i would do that... ^^

And in my case it is just like that...just trying in a small measure to make the effort  :)

This...this we agree with all of this!

Lol

I am sure non of our members are saying they are sith in real life, just that they appreciate the sith for the internet, gaming, and conversation aspect  :)

All I will say to this is there ARE Sith out there. You may take that any way you wish. http://www.sithholocron.com/main.htm (http://www.sithholocron.com/main.htm)

I will answer this one with a real life excerpt from my checked past.

Having just finished working out in full gi at the USCG base in Miami while on break, standing over night duty.  My sparring partner was a senior ranked member (in the Coast Guard).  He was a Isshin-Ryu Sandan and I was a new Shodan in Shotokan. He had caught me on the tip of my nose and it was clearly broken, a clean break.  I went up to medical and they cleared and set it.  So in a fair amount of pain, still in my all black gi (I was breaking it in for a white/black tournament, where the players wear opposing colored gi's for the crowd, peers, and judges to better keep track of who was doing what), and heading up to the duty deck to let them know I would be in to relieve them in a few after I changed.

(I know what is the point right?)

There were three people standing there (all CG) and one of them I did not know.  He proceeds to say "Hey another ninja!...I studied with Stephen Hayes and am a certified instructor".

I nodded to the young ninja and signed in the duty log book, he reaches over while I'm writing and grabs my nose...my broken nose...and at the same time says "I hear you got your n..."

He did not finish because I had slapped him across the face out of instinct.

I left him on the floor and went change.

(I was the duty petty officer so busted nose or not my duty was to be there and not much more lol)

I came back in uniform and the same three are there and the two are laughing.

The ninja proceeds to tell me all about his extensive training...fighting a dozen guys at once, catching shurikens, and jumping off buildings so he could catch himself with his ninja hand tools.

At this point in my life I was not as tolerant as I am now so I asked him to leave, in a not so polite manner as his BS was making it hard for me to focus on anything.

For some reason which I can not explain he struck a stand that I would have to say was classic chop sockie and said "If you can touch my head I will go".

Now I am not trying to say I am the best of any style or any such...but I slapped him again and he started crying.



What has this got to do with "real sith"?  Oh I am sure there are plenty of people who say lots of things, especially on the internet...I am sure that guy went on to be a grand master of spinjitsu...on the interweb...but the reality is that sith are evil.

Not that pretending to be one is evil...it is pretending.

Not that liking sith for gaming characters or online persona is evil...again, pretending.

But in real life, saying that you approve of the lifestyle of mass murdering serial killers from a space fantasy setting is rarely an inroad to anything productive.

Guy boasting about being a ninja after clearly reading a Kung-Fu magazine and watching a movie = guy joining a sith organization in real life.

Same same...both need to be slapped.


I did get in trouble for the slaps by the way.  It all washed out in the end because the ninja went UA the next week instead of getting underway with his ship.  He was caught a few weeks later and got a big chicken dinner (BCD discharge).  I got extra duty and a stern talking to.


Moral of the story...if you are going to talk the talk and can not walk the walk, you will eventually get slapped.

:D

For our forum and our discussions...the above does not apply lol.

I am on board the sith can be fun train...just not in real life.

:D

The thing about the Sith belief is that it's extremely open to interpretation, as even with the Jedi code (though more so in my opinion). It's just like any other religion or belief system; some view it one way, and others in a different manner. At its core, the Sith believe in a survival of the fittest view on just about everything. It's all a competition, and there are losers and winners; the difference in interpretation being how you "win" in the grand scheme of things above all others. This could involve, as you say, killing others to reduce competition/discourage it (though that would be very unwise to do anywhere in modern society) or simply being ambitious as hell and striving to be the very best like no-one ever was in, say, business. Now the full-blown elements of the Force coming into play in a realistic setting just don't apply, so it's all about philosophy if the basic principles would be applied. That website there is very likely just for some (enthusiastic?) fans who actually agree with the nihilism and extreme individualism of the Sith from the Star Wars universe, but people claming to be IRL Sith who are badasses who beat the sh*t out of or kill those who oppose their will are very likely near the same level as your head-slap ninja so far as grasp on reality goes  ;D. Same would apply for someone being holier-than-thou because they follow the Jedi teachings supposedly. The basic principles of each philosophy can very easily be applied to the real world, but past that it's just beyond reason.

"Everything in moderation, including moderation"

The extremes of either can be interpreted in lots of ways if someone wants to, this is true.

I was purely taking the example to the real world consideration...where fantasy rarely ever crosses over neatly.

We can debate endlessly.

Enjoy your sith-ishness if you like, I support your choice of pretending!

But clearly, Jedi have better cookies and pie!

(http://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-frc1/p480x480/484652_628663913815749_571675641_n.jpg)

:D

I never claimed to follow the teachings of a fictional society in a sci-fi/fantasy universe, but thanks for that pie pr0n!  :P

I want to partake in a different approach.
So many many people in this world see "Jedi" as their form of Religion and practice different Rituals of their choosing like pagans since there are no overall rules which i personally think is why I think it is a valuable Religion since it allowes oneself 2 things. First you may do everything with which you as an individual feel good with and seconds you may keep your religion to thyself which is healthy for your wellbeing since everyone is different with their connection to ................. (please insert whatever you deem worthy dear reader).

So I want to give the whole thing my credit as to say that there is something important in that scheme. The power of choice.
When there are self proclaimed Jedi why shall there not be a percentage of people who call themselves self proclaimed Sith?

And here i want to invite every Sith who might have the time to participate!

I honestly would be interested on how many and which properties an individual must gather in your opinion to be called Sith in the first place.
For example: A Drug Lord is most definetly a criminal with high morale issues but and that is a big BUT most of them have Familys as well for whom they take care to the extend of self mutilation. People they would die for which a Sith would never EVER do.
Lets take a Mass murderer. Here its a bit different most of them are real psychopaths which lost all perception of humanity as a place of social interaction. With those you may find people whom you may call Sith but really they would never call themselves that since they deprived so far from what we perceive that they give a shell (upps Sorry!) for Star Wars doctrines.
They do that out of a complete different approach.

They are Ill.

Most of them sadly -beyond resocialisation ill- I am talking here.
And that is not what I call Sith since that sad person even with all the Pain and Suffering he produced is a Victim…

I am looking forward to read your answers and please rest assured that I am honestly interested in that theme and I appreciate every answer.

Kitra

Well I don't know what "going UA" means, but I'm guessing that means he jumped ship; and by the sounds of it, you caused that. :(

As for "real life" they are many, many people in this world far more evil than the Sith, who claim no persona to cover their actions, that is just how they are!

That's why I despair at the world; it is a hateful place.

Quite frankly, this really hits the nail on the head. The Sith teachings don't say anywhere that you have to kill or be "Evil." It says to further yourself. To make yourself better, stronger. Whatever that means to you on an individual level. Unlike the Jedi teachings, the Sith are allowed much more freedom to follow their own path.

 (Clipped)
This response kind of bugs me a bit. This is taken from Wikipedia : Jediism became accepted as a religion following the Jedi census phenomenon in 2001 and the preceding email campaign to put "Jedi" as an answer to the census religion classification question. The phenomenon attracted the attention of sociologist of religion Adam Possamai who analyzed it in the framework of what he dubs "hyper-real religion".[2] Although inspired by elements of Star Wars, Jediism has no founder or central structure.

Census figures released in 2012 of England and Wales showed 176,632 respondents indicated "Jediism" as their faith, making it the most common "alternative" faith and the seventh most common overall.[8] This was a decrease from 390,127 Jedi in the 2001 census.[8]

And you say that someone who follows the teachings of the Sith should be slapped? Just because you don't agree with your own interpretation of the Sith. Is it wrong to try and move up in the company you work for? Is it wrong to make more money? Is it wrong to study to make yourself smarter? Is it wrong to push yourself to reach your full potential? That is my interpretation of what it means to be Sith.
If you would like a real world comparison, I offer you this. The Go Rin No Sho, The Book of Five Rings. This was written by Miyamoto Musashi in 1645. For those of you who don't know what it is, it's a book about Japanese swordsmanship. It goes into great detail on strategy and the best way to cut down your opponent. How is a book written about killing in the 1600's related? Because today, the Go Rin No Sho is considered the Businessman's Bible. The philosophy of the book can be applied to business today, and is required reading in top companies around the world. Are these business men going out and slaughtering each other? Are they murdering people in the street? No. They're not. They have taken the philosophy behind the book and applied it to their lives. Can you honestly tell me that there is a difference?

I hope my post above doesnt stay ignored.  :-\

For me it has nearly all that is relevant for a fruitful conversation.
Instead of this pityful fighting over personal perception lets try to get into it shall we?

I agree.

OK I'll bite. My personal "take" on what Sith is, and what it means to be Sith when contrasted to being Jedi.

Before I start though, be aware that you can have 12 Sith in a room and get at least 13 different answers! This, is mine!

To be Sith is to concentrate on self-empowerment, that is to say making yourself stronger, more focused, faster, better, my formidable and better able to deal with the challenges of life. That is not to say that a Jedi cannot attain these things, but their focus is different; control, calmness above all else, emotionlessness, more about "we" and less about "I".

To be Sith is to embrace your feelings and emotions, NOT to shun them. To quote from Darth Sidious himself;

"I can feel your anger. It gives you focus, makes you stronger!"

A Jedi shuns all emotion in favour of and artificially imposed serenity.

To be Sith is to NOT fear that dark place that exists within all of us. It is to examine it, become one with it, absorb from it that which is useful and discard that which is not. Deal with it, don't run and hide from it!

A Jedi fears their inner-self so they seek to control it; burying it under years of denial, meditation of restriction, and basically locking that part of themselves away.

To be Sith is to figure out what is effective, and useful...then learn to make use of it. Everything must have a function, but that is not to say that everything must be work. There are different types of "functionality and usefulness";

• Things that make you Stronger!!
• Things that make the job easier
• Things that make success more achievable
• Things that make you happy.
• Things that bring you pleasure.

These are but a few.

The Jedi work similarly, I believe, but they have an artificially imposed barrier to certain things; power, happiness, pleasure, contentment, possession, attachment. (see later)

To be Sith is to embrace a larger view of what is allowable, and therefore possible. Does this mean KILLING PEOPLE? In reality, no...though when someone breaks into your home at three in the morning and tries to raped your mother, before making off with the entire contents of your house....it is certainly an option that many would see as being on the table! (disclaimer: this has fortunately never happened to me!)

The principle here is to embrace a more holistic view of the world, and a greater freedom of personal expression. Obviously, we have societal laws that prohibit certain things, and to go against that is to invite disaster into your life; but within the bounds of what IS lawful, there should be no OTHER boundaries.

The Jedi have a very dogmatic view of what they consider to be "right"; and in my humble opinion, that view is very badly skewed. For example, the Jedi prohibition on attachment. The Jedi shun partnerships and intimate love, in favour of some grandiose idea of "communal, altruistic love"; giving a small portion to everyone (deserving or otherwise) rather than giving larger measure to a few, who genuinely DO deserve our affection. (see next)

To be Sith is to embrace the idea of potency of concentration, rather than the watering down of effect until it becomes ineffectual. To me, the Sith understand that to have the greatest effect you must be able to concentrate and focus all the energy, intent, desire, love and will into a single space and time. An analogy would be board breaking (a common Martial Practice form) You focus all your effort, technique, power and will into a single strike....and if you are well trained enough, and strong enough, AND focused enough....the "object" doesn't stand a chance. If any one of these is lacking, you get a broken hand/foot/head!

An off the wall quote comes actually from Highlander, where a revived Ramirez tells Connor Macleod; "If you summon up all your essence in one place, and at one time, you can achieve something truly wonderful!"

There's actually also a Sith maxim for this, which says that the Force is like venom; "poured into many cups, it loses its potency, becoming diluted and merely an irritant. But pour those cups back into a single vessel and you have the power to stop a Krayt Dragon's heart!"

The Jedi don't see it like this. They prefer to drip away their strength, in favour of longevity.

There are probably many more, but these are the main ones that occur to me; for now.

Thank you for this intimate sharing of your choice of view i will think about that before I answer in complete.

Finally some answer/insight which is on a level to think about.

Thank you and laters.

Kitra

I apologize if it seemed like I ignored your post

(Clipped)
I started typing several answers here, but there's very little I can think to say that Darth Arkanus hasn't. I'm absolutely in love with this response.

@ Tsurabisu Thank you for mentioning I thought that much since the answer of  Darth_Arkanus is quite comprehensive.
@ Darth_Arkanus
Again I want to thank you for “biting” even when I don’t want to trap you like a fish. I am only looking for a nice exchange of wisdom and ideas since that is one of the seldom currencys which doubles when shared.
At first it is my obligation to share my view on what has been posted above.

-   as you read before at least when it comes to me I absolutely reinforce individuality above all else.
-   The empowerment is relevant for Jedi as Sith as well only the approach is different. Approved.
-   Jedi are not shunning the emotions but to come to peace with them.
“There is no emotion there is peace.” Of course Jedi´s have emotions and of course they are confronted with them continuously but they shall be the master over their emotion instead of riding them like the Sith do.
 So it is again the same approach… A heavy focus on emotions one time to surrender to them/ride them and one time to coming to peace with them and tame them. Both have acceptance for Emotions. So Jedis don’t run from them but use nearly all their time around emotions as well as the Sith.
-    The artificially imposed barrier for the jedis seem to be a combination of self reliance and self discipline. While the Sith do pretty much the same.
When we go through ha day of a Jedi/Sith we find more things they have in common then with most other supposedly contradicting enemys in fiction.
Both meditate, train very hard physicly as well as mentally, try to become a better grasp of the force, eating, sleeping, learning intellectually from the customed history of profession as well as respecting their master for his power/wisdom with the wish to learn everything.
-   The concentration of resources to one point is not only known by the Sith since the Jedi s as their counterparts match them in every idea and vice versa.
We cant say the Sith are better Warriors as well as we cant say that Jedis are the stronger force users. The wisdom part is a pat as well even when they are looking for different kinds of wisdom. So the highlander quote grasps for both traditions again.
-   Hmm I don’t quite get the maxim I guess. It doesn’t matter how many cups we got since the mass stays the same. If there is a time measure with this phrase then it is not addressed as such and cant be counted into the equasion.
And the balance Sith and Jedi hold that both are equals in each Ability as I stated above. Neither is more powerful than the other only different.
Example: Sidious lightning is one of the most destructive force a single individual can muster. Yoda s rebuke is so focused that he may harness and recast that power to his will. I see no winner here since even their Lightsabre skills are equal. I just took them since there clash of powers is most widely known yet there are many others who seemed or in some aspects are equal.



All in all. I have respect for both traditions. One is not better than the other. Both can be translated to our real lives yet not to its fullest extend giving a slight upper hand towards Jedis in our momentarily established social environment. The Ideals seem quite effective equally since it depends on the individual character which way musters a better ground to grow or a better chance of filling up a lack in its life. So I want to merge (as many many others have before) just to show how well they work with each other.

Find Peace in Emotion,
Seek Knowledge from Ignorance,
Feel Serenity in Passion,
See Harmony in Chaos,
See the Force in Death.

Im sure there are many different mergings of this in the web but this only strengthen my idea of completion when both traditions go hand in hand in real life.
For everyone the right tool to grow.

OK, I just want to explain the Sith quote, as I take your point (even if I disagree with some of them) about the similarities of Sith and Jedi approaches. I don't think that is a difference of opinion that is likely to be settled.

Anyway, back to the quote:

The idea of "Venom" is that it is at its most potent, as far as effect, when it is concentrated. To give another comparison; think of washing up liquid/Geschirrspülmittel, if you only have a very small amount, then its effectiveness is weakened. When you have a larger amount, its washing power is greatly increased. That's the point with Venom too; the more you have in one place, the deadlier it is.

So too with Power and your personal energies.

I don't know if that is any clearer, but I hope so.

Hmm... I guess I see.
Reading Geschirrspühlmittel within a otherwise completely english message was very amusing big Thanks!  ;D

But i guess the one thing where I still cant get to the point of the quote is that i dont see that a Jedi Master could as well say that to his Padawan and be absolutely true.

Why should that idea (ok maybe the allegory but there are many to say that) only thrive on Sith side?

When there should be a point in my answer where you disagree to the fullest we can go over that if you like.

To be honest, the Jedi and Sith remind me of the Capitol vs. District 13 in The Hunger Games.

Remember that we're supposed to be discussing fictional Jedi and Sith. It doesn't matter if there are religions or not because there is a "no religion" rule here on the forum. It seems to me that this particular rule is being crossed in this discussion, so let's keep the discussion to the Star Wars universe.

OK, I have no wish to break the rules on the forum, so this is the last that I'll say on the subject here.


That's fine. I appreciate that English is not your first language, and you are a lot more eloquent in it than I am in German. But I meant no conflict with my choice of words. It was more along the lines of "Ich werde versuchen, Ihnen zu antworten!"


Very different, as the Jedi do not seek empowerment for any advertised reason other than to help others; at the expense of themselves, whereas the Sith are always portrayed as doing the exact opposite.


I don't see this as true. The Jedi accept "acceptable emotions", and warn constantly against unacceptable ones. Cases in point:

"Beware attachment, the shadow of greed that is" Master Yoda
"Fear is the path to the Dark Side....fear lead to anger, anger leads to hate....hate, leads to suffering!" Master Yoda
"Don't centre on your Anxieties Obi-wan, keep you concentration here and now; where it belongs" Master Qui-gon Jinn
"Bury your feelings deep inside. They do you credit, but they could be made to serve the Emperor" Master Obi-wan Kenobi

It is well known that, in addition to the forbidding of "negative emotions" (fear, anger, hate, vengfulness, desire, lust, envy) the Jedi seek to prevent attachment and love as well. They are yoked by this, where the Sith are not.

Also, the Jedi do not come to "peace" with their Anger, Rage, Hate, or Fear. They seek to eradicate these emotions from themselves; as one might destroy a virus.


I agree that the physical and spiritual training are largely similar, with as we've discussed the different emphasise on how to deal with emotions. (suppress or draw strength from)


I did not say that the Sith were stronger, or better Warriors. Freer? Yes, but not stronger. That said, the amount of Jedi you see teaming up again a single Sith makes me wonder if the Jedi themselves consider the Sith to be stronger, faster and more lethal.



I agree, Master Yoda is a match for almost any Sith, just as Master Sidious is a match for any Jedi. Master Sidious' force lightning and Master Yoda's Tutaminis (energy absorbtion) skills are equal, their saber skills are equal, their acrobatic skills are equal too.



I do not disrespect the Jedi; in fact I find their search for inner peace laudible; if at too high a price. I disagree though that a Jedi approach is more possible in life; I don't believe it is. In fact, I believe that the passivity of the Jedi is a great weakness in the type of society we live on. I offer one my quote, from "Enter the Dragon";

"Strength makes all other values possible! How many delicate wonders have left the world, for lack of the strength to survive?" Mr Han.


This is a very Jedi crede still.

Let's look at the two;

Jedi code;

There is no emotion, there is peace
There is ignorance, there is knowledge
There is no passion, there is serenity
There is no chaos, there is harmony
There is no death, there is the force.

Sith code;

Peace is a lie. There is only passion,
Through passion I gain strength,
Through strength I gain power,
Through power I gain victory,
Through Victory my chains are broken,
The Force shall free me.

If one were to amalgamate the two; then might I suggest;

Peace and Passion are two sides of the same coin,
Knowledge is Strength, Ignorance is weakness,
Power and Serenity are not in conflict,
Victory brings harmony out of chaos,
The Force brings Victory and Freedom from Death.

I want to widen this though, and look at the Crystal Code of the Jedi, then offer the Crystal code of the Sith; which is of my own design!

Jedi Crystal Code

The Crystal is the Heart of the Blade,
The Heart is the Crystal of the Jedi,
The The Jedi is the Crystal of the Force,
The Force is the Blade of the Heart,
All are intertwined; the Crystal, the Blade,
the Jedi. We are one!

Sith Crystal Code

The Crystal is the Will of the Blade,
The Will is the Crystal of the Sith,
The Sith is the Will of the Dark Side,
The Dark Side is the Blade of the Will,
All are connected; the Crystal, the Blade,
the Sith. All are One!

For obvious reasons, these are almost identical, but deliberately different. A "different point of view" you might say.

(http://i1066.photobucket.com/albums/u409/IaCthugha/270px-AlbatrossTAS_zps73074957.jpg)

For a second there I thought the whole site was in comic sans, but now that I know better... their level of evil is highly disappointing.

A 6 year old would easily see that the Jedi are good, because most 6 year olds don't have the depth of experience or cognitive ability to look at anything deeper then face value.
A 6 year old would be easily be influenced by the Jedi constantly saying they are the guardians of peace and justice in the Republic, they probally wouldn't question whether the actions they took actually backed up that claim.
A 6 year old would easily identify the white hat/ black hat story line, I mean the Jedi are fighting evil people so they are good.

The fact that the Jedi are fighting evil people comes out fairly quickly, in the OT, slaughtering old people and Jawas, blowing up planets a few force chokes thrown in for good measure. My point is that fighting evil people doesn't make you good by default, it just means you are fighting evil people. Just because the Sith and Empire are evil, that doesn't make the Jedi good.

UA...unauthorized absence...meaning he was not where he was supposed to be...he had done this twice before and in the end he wanted to be out of the Coast Guard and smoke pot...so he left the base when the ship got underway and made a run for it.

How on earth this became about me is beyond me.

His back story is one full of lies, drug abuse, and failing to meet his obligations...he signed up for the Coast Guard, he asked to be allowed to join, and then decided that it was too hard and that he loved pot more than work.

He was an adult pretending to be a ninja, constantly lying, collected a paycheck while hiding from all work assignments, and joined a military service with a mission of drug interdiction knowing he loved the pot without intention to stop using.

So there you go.

His example is one of a lazy, incompetent, slacker...the sith reference was the real world consideration where he constantly told lies about being a ninja and worse a martial arts instructor.

*****

Since I went off topic with my story that somehow went a different direction than intended, let me steer my ship back on course.

I am of the belief that Jedi as a whole are honorable, selfless, and good.

I am of the belief that sith as a whole are selfish, power hungry, and evil.

As I am of the Jedi point of view it is easy to see the evil of sith.

I can also accept that those who like the power aspect of the sith could see the restrictive and controlling nature of the Jedi as evil.

As far as forum aspects go, I am a supporter of all our forumites and those things they appreciate...be it Green Lantern Jedi, considering costumes and background for being a living building avatar Jedi, undead sith lords, robots, power rangers, death metal, MLP, ABBA, zombies, superheroes, electronics, fanfic, cooking, fanart, or whatever else pops up.

So as this thread has completed jumped the tracks let us all do our part to put the train back on the rails.

For my part I accept that I have little real world love for anything sith...but I have been married, been divorced, held my children when they were born, held friends and family while they died, had a 100K in my hands, signed a house back to the bank, bought new cars, been in accidents that totaled vehicles, had fun partying, been addicted to alcohol before I was legal to drink, and lots more in between...meaning I have seen a bit of life and experienced plenty of ups and downs...enough to see that I just do not have any more room for darkness.

In the real world there is enough evil already. 

For me, IMO, I have seen enough evil that I just do not want to even consider the fantasy aspect of being dark.

But that is me.  Right now.  A handful of years ago I would be right with ya'll on the sith train...wooo hooo dark force powers...yayyyy.  But that was then.

Again...I like all of you gals and guys...if you like sith or Jedi...Ewok or Zabrak...Imp or Rebel...Star Wars or Star Trek...etc.  I am on board.

I will not reach a point where I will agree with anything sith.  Just not going to happen.

For RP characters and gaming, then the door is open.  I could easily portray a sith...and I suspect many would find my efforts quite sithy.  But that would just be an acting job, not a shift of philosophy.

Forgive me if I am a fairly happy guy, with a family, and appreciating the potential of good in the world...I prefer the thought of being a good guy...thus Jedi.

Have a great weekend all!

There's not much that can be said in response to THAT really, is there?

For myself, I have tried to be a good guy my whole life, and what I have received in return has convinced me that the "good guy path" gets you exactly NOWHERE. In many ways I am the CLASSIC Sith candidate, disenfranchised, disappointed with life, fearful of losing the only ones who actually make life have a POINT, and seeking an alternative to the same old same old which has lead me, as a near 40 year old man, to such a point of discontent that IF things don't change soon I'm going to become one with the Force! (No, I am NOT kidding about!)

Every time you turn on the TV you see evil people, doing evil things, and getting away with it. Be that murdering zealots beheading people in the streets of the UK, or greedy bankers (frankly, wrong starting letter!) lining their own pockets and putting people like myself in the crap, corrupt governments, even more corrupt organisations that work internationally and just feather their own nests to sickening levels (The EU for example).....yup, a LOT of evil.

Kinda makes you wonder what the point is....or at least, it does ME!

Oh, put the train back on the tracks? OK, erm, "I like Sith cos' it's like being a naughty boy...and you get to imagine what it'd be like to be naughty" *puerile, milk answer*

Someone listed a bunch of quotes as points against the Jedi approach to emotion.  I think there's some misunderstanding going on here.

And I can't even get into what I really want to say because of the eternal "is Zen a religion or a philosophy" debate.

I will say this: go read some Zen koans, look up the Ten Bulls, and then look at the Jedi as presented in the movies, not the EU.  The EU does idiotic fanservice things with Jedi and Sith.

It's being careful. Given time to prepare, police will always bring overwhelming numbers to a fight.

The Jedi also avoid learning too much about the Sith - they're aware of the general concept, but they don't study too much about their specific talents, so there's safety in numbers as a single Jedi could be overwhelmed by an unfamiliar trick of the Sith, whereas four or five will be harder to take down.

The point is that, yes, there is evil in the world, but have you ever seen what happens when you turn off all the lights in the room and light a candle? Even that tiny flame, though it seems so small against the crushing blackness, can still illuminate that room to a surprising degree. The only way the darkness can win against that candle is if you let it go out.

So carry your candle against the dark, and you might find that good deeds sometimes do go unpunished.

VERY well said Rogue. You get a point for that!

I'm afraid my candle went out years ago.

Then reignite it. You have that power. All you have to do is believe.

I'm confused. Now you're saying that you're comparing your entire story to the Sith because the person lied? You called him lazy, and absolutely nothing anywhere says that the Sith are lazy. In fact, quite the opposite. Lazy slackers would never be able to make it as a Sith. So your only connection in all of your story was that the person lied, or you assumed he lied and you slapped him. Spin it any way you want, but that's all it comes down to.
You gave some references to you in real life talking about how you have no more room for darkness. How you prefer the thought of being a "good guy."
I don't consider myself a bad person. I have a wife and daughter who I love and would do anything for. I constantly try and better myself. I throw myself into my work and have moved up in my company (I'm on my 5th promotion). I have a ruthless outlook on life. I wasn't given help to get to where I am, nor would I accept it. I have gotten everything I have in my life by myself. Am I satisfied with where I am? No. Will I ever be? No. I will keep working my arse off to provide a better life for myself and my family. I don't drink, smoke, do any kind of drug. I've never gone out and partied. I believe that these are weaknesses that are far below me and I will have nothing to do with. Am I Sith? Maybe, maybe not. Am I evil? No. The Sith ideals fit very well into my own life, with what I believe and what I've gone through. Am I a good person? That depends on what you mean by good person. Do I go out of my way and help people in need? No I don't. Am I willing to teach somebody how to help themselves? Yes, I am.

Harder to do than you may think.

honestly, I'm torn. I've never been able to choose between Jedi or Sith, so I tend to stand in the gray area. I love the alure of the Sith, their carefree-ness...But I love the "good guy" vibe and the morals of the Jedi...BAH!

So... what? You can still do it.

Exactly. Those things worth doing are worth fighting for. Point to Hobbie

Sith because Jedi won't allow love, or really any feelings they kill and are cold they also catch "criminals" (sith) even tho they know we will kill them. We have cookies. Lol. Haha. Love the raw battle and the kill who's in my way also the red sabers are the best.

Thanks. Have a point back :) 

I enjoy playing a bad guy - because I'm really NOT one.

It gives me a healthy way to let that side of myself out, without putting real people at risk.  We've all got our bad sides, brought out by different triggers - and releasing those in safe, healthy ways is good for us.

And Jedi allow for love - but they forbid attachment.  That is to say, they forbid placing that love above one's oaths and duties.

How can you forbid that over which one has no control?  One cannot outlaw or restrict feelings, try as one might.  Jedi feel as Sith do - as all sentient beings do. 

But they aren't ruled by their passions.  They don't dwell in them.

This does not mean they don't have them.

A Jedi seeks many points of view, to attempt total understanding (or, to use a Heinlein term, Jedi attempt to grok) - Sith attempt to enforce their understanding.

Thank you for the warning.
Since I believe that real live in fiction does in fact come intocontact at this point I will cease my interaction with the point below as well even when I would really enjoy adding my perspective as well…

Uff I just saw that the thread evolved so much while I was asleep so can we still answer that or is it not prohibited?







@ Darth Severus
That was what I meant I was looking at it from another perspective for which I apologize if it brought up a misunderstanding of any sort.
I believe that when you are a force against evil which in turn does not produce or use evil it is almost natural to think that they a re a force for good but it seems like you don’t see it that way.  Hmm. Different approach.

Jedi train younglings encourage individuality by selecting the proper master for the individual they are as father/motherfigures to them and would never harm someone except out of self defence.
They don’t look out for their own best interest instead spreading as much compassion and understanding around them that anyone can grow. They are perceptive of everyone and bestow theyr wisdom freely to anyone found wanting.

These are a few more points to tip the libra towards good for the jedi. 







@ Jedi Relmeob
I like people who are happy! They can see without attachement of their own problems what is happening around them while they tend to be quite hazardous infectious with their good mood. I tend to see myself as a Happy Camper to ^^


@ Aurentis
Oh I am actually right in the middle of a Zen book from Master Nagarjuna from India and his insights are timeless. I support your proposition!
Good point!



@ Hanslow
Why dont you just take the parts that fit you best and create your own legacy?
Nothing is set in stone for you and the only limits that  exist are the ones you lay for yourself. :)



@ ed_ification
You just remembered me of the Movie Equilibrium with your words.
If you haven’t seen it yet I want to recomment it to you ed_ification!
And im glad that you reinforce my argument a few sites ago that Jedis have emotions but accept them and live in peace with them. 

I wish a nice day for you all and want to say that I never enjoyed a conversation about Star Wars that much! *happyjump*!

I would choose Jedi due to the good they do around the universe, but when it comes down to the force i believe one should be adept to both sides of the force to better understand. One cannot call themselves a master unless they know all aspects of the force. What determines if you Jedi or Sith is how you use that balance of the Force.

Well said...point for you!

Hmmm..."darth" so I assume dark side point...but post is leaning towards light side...which do you want?

A Darth with light side points!

Be a rebel!

:D

Lol I just saw the light side points note...you are a rebel!

There indeed are Light Sith!

Well on earth that might be true but in Star Wars that is something completely different since you can achieve Dark Side Power only with acts of Evil like Hurting someone. When we just look at the Force Powers available to Sith it is pretty obvious that you cant master them without hurting someone pretty bad.

Only a few examples: Force Choke, Memory Loss, Force Scream.

I cant think of a nice way of using this powers. Maybe the Force Scream as a last resort against animals but since they are normaly very weak creatures (up to the size of a wolf) they will surely die. And killing is never a self defence.

Exception. Luke Skywalker. But his Story is something different.

Plus the Sith study the Jedi in great depth, so they know exactly what to expect, and regularly train for it, thus making them even more dangerous to Jedi in small numbers. In theory, at least. I personally would go as a dark gray rogue (I use the term as an indicator of philosophy, not just that they don't strictly obey the council in all things. that is lame. Qui-Gon is a Jedi, get over it.) my philosophy is that the Force has no light or dark side, the light or darkness lies within the individual using the Force. It is a tool to be used. a means to an end. I would use  it for personal gain, perhaps destroying things and killing people, but not for destruction and pain for their own sake. I would use it to get things done, maybe even for profit, because hey, who wouldn't want a Force User as a body guard or mercenary? I'm not an evil person, I work with a loose moral code. I wouldn't kill people if they don't deserve it, but if they get in the way of my objective, you gotta do what you gotta do.

THIS SO HARD.
SERIOUSLY.

I've posted this...somewhere before. I thought it interesting though, and thought that I'd post it here. It starts out with the Code of the Jedi pre Odan-Urr, and then goes into my interpretation.

"Emotion, yet peace.
Ignorance, yet knowledge.
Passion, yet serenity.
Chaos, yet harmony.
Death, yet the Force."

Emotion is not wrong, yet peace must prevail.
True knowledge is knowing that you must learn.
Without passion, we are soulless and cold.
Chaos exists in all of us, yet when it is mastered and controlled, harmony exists.
Death comes to all, yet the Force is eternal.

In contradiction to all above mentioned which is a very "cranial" view i want to know if anybody tryed to look upon this doctrines from a zen way?
Because this gives the whole idea a different spectrum of possibilities which are well grounded in the phylosophy used to create Star Wars in the first place. ;)

No, simply because I know next to nothing about Zen, save for seeing those intricately patterned "gardens", and being vaguely aware of it originating in Japan.

I'm open to instruction on that, either publicly or privately (if the former isn't allowed)

With respect to the forum rules, we can't get into it here, simply based on the fact that there is a seemingly-eternal debate regarding Zen; specifically, "is it a philosophy?" vs. "is it a religion?"  The popular answer is "both," and that's what some modern Zen aficionados will tell you is the "most appropriate answer," but this isn't necessarily true.  It all depends on your point of view.

Thus, in the interest of keeping to the rules, it's best to keep discussion (even academic discussion) of it off the forums.

I'll PM you a few links that may help with some basic questions about it.

Darth Arkanus if you want i could invite you to a group where it is not only allowed but even prohibited to speak from ones heart and grow, share and receive wisdom and ideas that may tap into the real life.

Here you are only allowed to talk about the fiction without the truth that it derived from our real live religions and castes of ethics in the first place. I dont know why anyone would like to see stagnation of personal growth inside any forum but we will respect it either way all right?

So if you are inclined to accept my offer you may send me a pm. :)

Interesting. It has been a while since I last attended this forum. But the post stayed alive. ;) Nice.

I have been very busy with work and working out - I am going to be Vader for an upcomming event in DK, apparently I have the right posture and hight to pose as Dave himself. :) I do not even own a Vader costume...

Too bad that my post did not stay the course, I just wanted to know why you are fascinated with one or the other. :)

Cheers.

Sith.  If you need something done do it with whatever it takes.  Also, I like Galen Marick's tactic of starring into his blade to channel his hatred.

I associate closely with this statement, I always feel that in and of themselves both Jedi and Sith are weak, the Jedi fail to acknowledge power as a way to help people and the Sith are center focused making them go against my personal feelings and theology.

Turmoil, yet Balance.
Chaos, yet harmony.
Ignorance, yet wisdom.
Through the force are chains broken.
Through strength we gain power.
Peace, wisdom, harmony, power, and balance.
This sums up my feelings on both sides I think.
The force is full of turmoil and so are we, always striving between light and dark but it is in living between them can we find power.
We are chaotic people but together we strive for harmony between others.
There is always ignorance in our hearts but through thinking, living and studying we can move past that.
The force (something else to me personally) breaks all chains.
We must strive for strength and power to accomplish deeds.
But we must always be balanced in everything we do.

One more thing: Sith are focused on Nietzschien philosophies: The strong survive and master the weak. Everything about the Sith screams Nietzsche to me, the striving for perfection through power constantly reminds me of the Ubermensch of Nietsche. As I tend to feel against Nietasche I dislike the majority of sith philosophy.

Hey look at you coming in as newbie pinch hitter and driving one over the fence!

Very nice on all points.

I could see many agreeing with your directional thinking...sounds like we may have a strong case for Gray here  :)

Point for you!

Point?  You speak more + which reflects the lighter side of the path but you have - points already which reflect the darker side.

Which do you prefer?

If you want the light points we can drive the points the other way in a day if you like  :)

Which do I prefer? I think I'm happy with either :P Grey Jedi is more where I sit but I'm not confined by the points :)

Rgr rgr...I will bump you a + to bring to you to a happy Gray 0  :)

Sith

I have walked the path of the light and righteousness and found at the end of it only the struggle to uphold a false ideology. I have also basked in the deepest level of hatred, the likes of which many will never experience in this life, and have discovered the amount of strength it gives a person. I have been capable of such acts of kindness that others have deemed me an angel, yet I have also known dark thoughts that many would never understand. I've made many attempts to walk the path of peace, to always see the light within the dark times, and to always uphold that which allows inner and outer growth. I've made every effort to calm the mind, accept what is, and to allow what is to be without conflict. Every time this attempt is made however, the darkness within inevitably takes hold and rears its ugly head. I've allowed myself to surrender to such intense levels of hatred and to allow it to take control of my thoughts, words, and actions. In doing so, I've learned that hate can be a very strong source of strength. I'm sure many people would not understand this, but hate can also be a sanctuary. When it takes hold, whether I want it to or not, I feel my energy field come alive, as if my entire body has become empowered to act and ready to do what needs to be done. The only sensation I know of that I can compare it to is the feeling one has after doing an hour long martial art class or spending an hour working out in the gym. I've found that by not trying to uphold a temporary false sense of peace, I no longer feel burdened by such endeavors, and therefore feel a sense of freedom not known to me before. Thankfully, I have never had to act on this hatred, but I feel assured knowing that if I did, there would be a deep well of strength to assist me if ever the need arose.



...plus red sabers are boss.

I wanna give a point for this, because I know it's intricacies so well, but what sort of point? This is a Sith post, yet you're on lightside points.

I'm on light side points because when I first joined, I told people they could give me whatever they wanted. Now I prefer dark side points.

Dark side point given then, with pleasure!!!!

It's going to take quite a while to get you back to the dark side ;D

Well in my view it's just like Whose Line where the points don't matter. It may say I'm a Jedi, but I know different.

This is something I'm currently trying to decide.

On the one hand Jedi get more choices of blade colours (might seem like a trivial point but it's a factor to me), and my favourite SW characters have been Jedi (Yoda, Luke, Obi-Wan, Mace Windu) but on the other hand I prefer the look of Sith sabers such as the claws and whatnot. I also like how the Sith are more free and less restricted in their path to power. I guess maybe a Gray Jedi is the way to go... (Do I still get all the saber colours?) ;)

I thought I was jedi but I must be irritating people and keep getting dark side points ... Lol

I would have to say I am more light side in my behaviors most of the time. If I had to choose a side though, I would be a Knight of the Fel Empire. Using the Force as a tool instead of my main purpose. Chivalry and Loyalty before philosophy.