Saber Forum

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Vv2OL5FEuU

They did get taken out rather fast, Of course it was by a very powerful Sith lord, But he's not super good at his saber skills

That was THE CRAPPIEST scene in the whole movie. "What's this? A slow crappy flip from the other side of a quite large room! QUICK EVERY ONE STARE AND DON'T TRY TO AVOID IT!!!"

I don't know Saesee Tiin has a pretty bad ass scene in the animated clone wars cartoon(non 3d) and he rocks a sweet set of armor (http://i1190.photobucket.com/albums/z442/Crocketgsxr6/Other/Saeseetiinarmor.jpg)  Plus both him and Eeth Koth were on the Head Council and they were facing Palpatine. Yoda even failed against him and had to go into exile.   

GL loves to ruin great side characters in his movies its pretty much required in his book of directing same with kit fisto, they really should have put up more of a fight oh well....

LOL! That's funny Ultra! I was just watching that the other day & was thinking the same thing! I mean you'd think Mace woulda brought the heavy hitters!

Not only that, but Mace uselessly twirls his lightsaber around while standing behind everyone else as they get slaughtered.

If this were Star Trek, these guys would be wearing red....

Lol that was great ultra I almost forgot about that scene.... I love how they watch as they get stabbed and they don't try to block or anything:/

I think if GL was trying to show how powerful Palpatine was, it would've been WAY more impressive to have them fight longer & show that he could hold off & almost overcome 4 powerful Jedi! (since technically he doesn't beat Mace) JMO  8)

LOL!!!     Wait I am wearing a red shirt.......Crap,I am not going anywhere.

I never wear red shirts. It's not safe....

Neither is wearing camo with a bright green "safety" belt!  or white armor........"LOOK A TARGET"!!

Totally Agree :D

Absolutely Agree ;)!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I Give Master Fisto Credit For At Least Staying Alive For A Couple of Seconds lol  :D

(I Blame Jedi Arrogance For These Quickly Dispatched Jedi Lives......... (The Jedi's Thoughts At The Time of Lord Sidious's Assault) "Oh here comes the Sith Lord with His Lightsaber, ha HA!!! Doesn't He Know I'm Immune To All Lightsaber Atta....... OMG I JUST GOT STABBED!!!!!!  AHHHH I'm DYING!?!?!?!?!!!!!!")

I Think "Hello Kitty Vader" Says It Best, When He Describes These Jedi and Their Actions ;)

(http://www.failimages.com/jokepics/4-3a066hellovaderpt5-1.jpg)

yeah i always loved kit fisto and when i saw him die this fast i was so mad. i always thought this whole scene was stupid

Powerful Sith Lord, yeah, yeah... the dude straight up STABBED those fools!

@Wraith - Hello Kitty Vader always cracks me up hahaha.  What a classic outfit.

I never like to talk about this scene... it's so badly done it makes me just shake my head in frustration.  With all the special effects Lucas OVERUSED in the prequels, you'd think they could at least make it seem like Sidious is moving faster than that... or something.  I agree with Warlock, a scene with Palps taking on four Jedi and slowly killing them one by one would have been so friggin awesome.

At least in the novelization (which, by the way, was MUCH better than the movie) it almost makes sense.  In that he shoots forward in a flash and suddenly Tiin's head is rolling across the floor... it makes for a much more threatening villain than Ian McDiarmid hopping around making stupid faces (no offense to Ian McDiarmid, I loved him as the Emperor for the most part - especially in ROTJ).

I plan on adding the Kit Fisto FX Saber (when it comes out) to my collection, and Dubbing It: "The Smiling Death" (Because It Was Said That Kit Fisto Met His Demise With A Smile On His Face ;), (You Have To Respect That  ;D))

@ to Master Attoru:

(You Got To Love/Hate "Hello Kitty Vader"  ;D)

I'll have to sit down and read the book one of these days, your description of that scene from the book is so much more Awesome!!!!!!!  than what we saw in the movie.......  :-\

Do it man, I highly recommend it.  Fleshed out a lot of characters that were completely ruined in the movies - Count Dooku, Anakin, etc.  Great descriptions of the thoughts going through the characters' heads, not to mention the fight scenes.  Two thumbs up from me.

Just Out of Curiosity My Brother...... do you remember what the book said about the thoughts that were going through Lord Tyranus's Head directly prior to him being beheaded.......

(I have always wondered, if he had Hatred towards Sidious (for Sidious casting him aside so easily and without care) (Which I Would Guess Were His Thoughts During These Final Moments), or..... did he see himself as some kind of willing sacrificial lamb, preparing the way for "The Chosen One" (Whom Sidious (and possibly Tyranus(I say possibly, because I am not sure what Sidious told him regarding Anakin and his thoughts and prophecies on him)) could have thought that he was the prophicized "Sith'ari")

 

I couldn't quote exactly, but I distinctly remember a sense of shock and fear.  The plan in the book was to kill Kenobi and have Anakin take Dooku into custody - naturally when Sidious gives the command to kill him, Dooku pretty much crapped his pants lol.  I don't recall any hatred, but in my opinion there was no time - only enough time for the shock and terror to wash over him before his head went rolling...

Your second theory is interesting, but considering the typical Way of the Sith - regarding ones self over all others - it seems unlikely.  I suppose some Sith are an exception to this rule, but Dooku was not.  He greatly enjoyed the power the Dark Side gave him, and while he obeyed Sidious loyally I don't think he would have given his life for Sidious's bigger plan.  Just my opinion tho.

Your Probably Very Right ;), Me Being A "Grey Sith" I Tend To Think of More Than Just Myself, and More of "The Bigger Picture" , but I have to remind myself that this is not the norm, among the majority of the Sith.....

Lord Sidious:

"Kill Him..... Kill Him Now......"

Anakin:

"I shouldn't......"

Lord Sidious:

"DO IT!!!!!!"

Lord Tyranus:

(http://rlv.zcache.com/crap_your_pants_tshirt-p23585954527897365535jn_400.jpg)

AHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (All Internal Of Course ;) )

Awesome.

Hey! I happen to have the novelization sitting right here! And I quote:

"As he looks up into the eyes of Anakin Skywalker for the final time, Count Dooku knows that he has been deceived not just today but for many, many years. That he has never been the true apprentice. That he has never been the heir to the power of the Sith. He has been only a tool.
His whole life- all his victories, all his struggles, all his heritage, all his principles and his sacrifices, everything he's done, everything he owns, everything he's been, all his dreams and grand vision for the future Empire and the Army of Sith- have only been a pathetic sham, because all of them, all of him, add up only to this.
He has existed only for this.
This.
To be the victim of Anakin Skywalker's first cold-blooded murder.
First, but not, he knows, the last.
Then the blades crossed at his throat uncross like scissors.
Snip.
And all of him becomes nothing at all."

Powerful stuff, eh? I hope that answers your questions about Dooku. I loved this book so much I wrote a book report on it for high school! I highly suggest picking it up!

Thank You For Writing This Out Here ;)  I Truly Appreciate It!!!!!!  ;D

Makes you feel kind of bad for Dooku doesn't it  :-\........ 

In the end, he became merely a foot stone on the path to the Dark Side for Anakin Skywalker.....

He Deserved More..............

Hey no problem man! ;)
And yea, you do sort of feel bad for him after that scene, but... Stover does a good job making him seem like a real arrogant D-Bag before, so.... it all evens out! lol

This is true and it is upsetting that they couldn't have choreographed a better fight scene... a la Bruce Lee's "Fists of Fury."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tBz99aAo034#ws (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tBz99aAo034#ws)

I struggle with this scene... I would like to think, "It's a Dark Lord of the Sith......That explains his power...." But when I think about it, that thought could have better described it if he were actually fighting them for a few minutes, and then won.......

So that makes me think....."It must have been a timing issue. They needed to make the fight scene short for time......."
And that makes me think..."That leaves them as two Jedi that suck...."
I do not mind a Jedi that sucks, because I am a Sith, but then I think "Jedi don't suck that bad"
Then I think, "It must have been ONLY a timing issue. The two Jedi don't suck, they just needed time"
Then I think, "Why would they need to cut the time short? I don't see why they would need to do that."
Then that makes me think, "It's a Dark Lord of the Sith.......That explains his power....."
And the thought goes on in a circle.........  :-\ :-\ :-\ :-\ :-\

A bunny trail thought in all that..... GL just failed........

So, I don't know what to think, other than we need an explanation from GL......


About Dooku's last thoughts.... I don't feel that bad for him..... I kinda feel like he should have seen that coming....... If he were a true Sith he would have....... Sith always betray, so he should have expected that. It makes me feel like he was stupid..... Darth Maul would have been better........ They should have kept him through episode three instead of Dooku, and then had Anakin Skywalker kill him. It would have been more epic in my opinion....... (I know, Darth Maul survives and all. I just wish he would have stayed as DS's apprentice.)

Then again, there is a VERY small feeling of being sorry for him...... But it fades quickly....

I agree with you on that point.  I think the scene was done this way to make him seem like a powerhouse, so you really get a feel for his might... I just think it was poorly planned.  Here are two reasons why I don't like this idea:

1.  If you're going to have this guy come barreling out of the gate to wipe out two Jedi Masters instantly, at least make it visually believable.  As it goes you just see Palpatine basically walk up and stab them... I'm sorry but unless he used some kind of "Force paralysis" ability it just seems dumb.  At least if he was a whirlwind of darkness (like a true counterpart to Yoda) you could excuse it.

2.  Once again let me explain my feelings that there is more to these people than their massive power in the Force or lightsaber abilities.  Think about it - why was Yoda great?  Cause he was a beastly powerful Force user?  Or a master duelist?  No, he was great because he was wise beyond measure, and it was exactly this wisdom that allowed him to save the galaxy through Luke.  Similarly, Palpatine didn't need to be a "super-powerful Sith Lord".  His power was in deception and subtlety - he was SMART.  He turned the freakin Jedi Order on its head, and gained absolute control of an unsuspecting government.  This was done through ingenious planning, not super Force powers.  Making him and Yoda the "superpowers" of their respective sides basically trashes this idea, and essentially dumbs down the movie to appeal to the average viewer.  Sorry, but I'm a bit disappointed.

Oh look, I went on another prequel rant.  Sorry bout that ;)

Quoted. For. Truth.

One of my favorite Movies! Although it is kinda funny considering I am studying a Japanese art (Sogobujutsu). But Come on it was BRUCE LEE!

I'm just going to consider the movie to be the abridged version of the novel.

XD))))))))))))))))

hahahahahaha I've laughed so hard that I got tears rolling out of my eyes !!!!!!!! Thanks for this one !!!!!

I think sidious was relying on anakin to come so he could force him to choose his ultimatum.
not that i think mace couldnt beat sidious fair and square, if that were the case i think it would have been a much longer battle, but i think sidious felt anakins presence getting closer and forfeited the duel, made himself look more pathetic. but yeah.. kolar and tiin, idk what happened. at best i could say sidious was being random and through everybody off guard with his speed and precision. but you have to think, battling droids is one thing, and yoda, obi-wan and anakin who was not to be trusted, are the only jedi who have ever faced sith since their reappearance and lived. all of which were absent at the time. but they were jedi masters, they should have done a little betterXP

Funny I was drinking way too much on New Years eve watching star wars after my wife went to sleep and while watching this scene my only thought was I bet my wife my cat and I could have been a greater help to Mace.

The crazy thing is that the extra jedi were brought along because they were bad ass.

Partly the fault of the writers and director for killing them off quickly to show the power of the Emperor...I think the same result of showing his strength with the dark side would have been shown with a bit of extended battle with all the jedi, using his evil powers to win...force lightning frying a saber for example, taunting, pushing, etc. use their numbers against them...let the jedi get a couple of shots in, but let them be trickery and getting mostly robes and cloth...then getting picked off.

Shame the writer and director were not interested in the long term viewing pleasure of the real fans.

Exactly.  I always attributed the powers of Yoda and the Emperor to be more in terms of intellect - Yoda's quiet wisdom vs the Emperor's cunning manipulations.  Instead of showcasing these facets, they just used the easy way out and made them both Force powerhouses.  I mean, it lets Lucas shove more special effects into the movie so more people would come see the movie right?  Why not?  :P

What a perfect opportunity for one of those crazy slow motion scenes right?

Where the slow goes real fast for a second and then back to slow...this would be perfect to show the dire strength and power of the dark side...maybe after speeding past a jedi and killing him the backlash of the force slams him in the chest and he grimaces and winces in pain...then moves on to the rest of the fight.

Damn, that is sad. Even I react faster than that.

I can respect everyone's comments on the scene from the movie. But let's expand the thought pool a little bit. Back when I was teaching fencing, there were quite a few very good fighters on the field. However, I had managed to take 8 to 10 people single handedly. Many times when we had our melees (everyone divided in to two teams and we fight in a large battle) I would cassually walk the line and take out the entire line. Thus, such a scene is possible, however it is quite foolish for a single guy to dive in like that and not get hit. I would have used a different tactic myself. Divide and conquer is my best simple description of what I do with  multiple opponents.

Further, if any one has played the StarWars Saga RPG (the pen and paper - like D&D) then we can be aware of the many skills and abilities that are not readily apparant. One factor in particular are force points and destiny points that allow players to succeed with some pretty amazing feats. Moreover, you cannot destiny point a destiny point. Thus I would interpret the scene like this: Palpatine gets off a surprise round and destiny points a full round of attacks. Because it is surprise, the others do not get a partial action and are flat footed. They then cannot defend against Palpatines attacks and Palpatine lands a few natural 20 rolls in there.
Thoughts?

All good points.  I think the main thought here is the visual aspect - certainly Palpatine has the Force power to pull off such a surprise attack, but the pacing of those first few kills just comes off as unrealistic.  The Jedi had their weapons drawn for a reason... they were obviously anticipating trouble.

I still say they could have had him shoot forward in a shadowy blur, with heads rolling and Jedi falling everywhere.  It's within the realm of possibility (considering Palpatine's strength in the Force seemingly rivaling Yoda) and would have allowed us to suspend our disbelief a bit further.  Heck, even the fight with Mace was super slow (being as Sam Jackson wanted to do it himself), despite descriptions of his Vaapad being as blindingly fast.

I think there is a factor to the style of vaapad that may not always be super fast. just a thought, but it seems watching the films and how he fights,
 vaapad seem like a style that uses a lot of twists, spins and uses the power of those to create attacks that alternate between strength and speed in order to throw the opponent off, confuse him/her how to properly defend and brace their footing, and back/rapidly advance on him/her. this is probably where the "warning: may stray close to the darkside" factor comes in with how hard pressing the attack of vapaad and i think in some scenes we see mace steadily trying to keep his control

Meh, Agen Kolar and Saesee Tinn needed to die anyway. If they didn't get killed in Palpatine's chambers, then they would have definitely been eliminated from Order 66. 



Cheers!!
Amizzer

Yeah I gotcha there.  Then again, it might just be Samuel L trying to keep his control... since he has no real swordsmanship experience haha.  Don't get me wrong, he's a total badass, but come on... let the stunt people do their jobs.

I mean it wouldn't be as noticeable if you didn't have such epic, fast-paced duels in the very same movie (Anakin vs Dooku, Yoda vs Sidious, Anakin vs Obi-Wan).  My main problem isn't even Mace's part in the duel, it's pretty much just that beginning part where the other Jedi die... not debating the necessity of it, just the execution (heh heh, see what I did there?)

As bad as this scene is, I think we have to remember that it is, after all, staged. I'm a Pro Wrestling fan and,scoff at it if you will, but I think it can be used to prove a point here. Anytime you try to stage a high flying, acrobatic move in real time, it will usually look a bit oddly timed and require a certain amount of suspension of disbelief. Some examples:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WDvyvi_jdGU# (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WDvyvi_jdGU#)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_l15KJ-uO0g#ws (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_l15KJ-uO0g#ws)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vipEKZhade4#ws (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vipEKZhade4#ws)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SNuzrdzFRZ4#ws (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SNuzrdzFRZ4#ws)

What do these all have in common with the Palpatine Corkscew Super Kill? They're all pretty slow when you think about it. The opponent SHOULD have plenty of time to simply step to the side, thereby avoiding the attack, but they don't, because in the context of the fight(or scene) the attack is supposed to happen MUCH faster, not affording them time to do so.

Just a little something to think about.

At least kit fisto lasts about 10 seconds longer. And how did they get so caught off guard. They were in the clone wars for crying out loud.

I blame uncle Lucas and his legion of sycophant writers...the scene should have used stop start action with prune face moving in real time and the others slower based upon strength of Jediness much like the Sherlock Holmes fight scenes...that way you could show everyone reacting but prune face a touch faster to show his sith grand master status...though Yoda should have owned pruney...yep Lucus kinda firetrucked this scene, sideways...with a stick

i think this goes back to Jedi also being arrogant and too sure of themselves as Yoda stated in one of the movies, Even Mace his biggest flaw is his arrogance which led to his downfall, He just assumes 4 masters would be enough to take on a sith lord which in most cases should probably be true but i think they actually underestimated Palpatine who appeared to be a frail old senator with no extraordinary skills until he springs into action catching them by suprise, I aslo believe he use FORCE SCREAM with is from KOTOR II and that ability in that game stuns and confuses opponents let u walk right up and attack even though this is not explained in movie it seems to make the most sense to me, after all Palpatine best weapon is his deception. I dont think he defeated Yoda outright it ended up more of default win really, I think Yoda was a tad better with a lightsaber and Emperor was a tad more powerful with the force

Whew there is pretty much nothing that you said that I would agree with lol   :P

This will have to be one of those situations where it is better to just agree that we have our own opinions  :)

I just read that and thought the same thing.... Palps being stronger in the Force than Yoda? Okay, never-mind, I'm not arguing....

While others choose not to comment, I will. I want to break this down and address all of your points, one by one.

First:


The Jedi are not considered to be arrogant. They embody peace, tranquility, and a calm demeanor. At one point, when confronting Palpatine, Yoda asks him if he was surprised. Palpatine responds with "Your arrogance blinds you, Master Yoda." Mace Windu was the furthest thing from arrogant. As a matter of fact, I believe Mace to be one of the only Jedi to be in FULL control of his emotions. Mace created the lightsaber form called Vaapad, which is a variant of Juyo. This form takes allows for the user to use all emotions while fighting, but forcing him to remain calm and in full control. Walking this line is extremely difficult as it is very easy to full victim to anger and let those emotions drive you.

Mace Windu didn't have a "downfall". He was betrayed by Anakin and murdered by Palpatine.


He took what was left of the Council with him. The others were off on missions. Even Yoda was on away, with the wookies on Kashyyk. He did the best he could with what he had. He didn't assume anything.


This would make sense, and if so, directly contradicts your previous statement: "He just assumes 4 masters would be enough to take on a sith lord". If he did, in fact, use this ability, it would explain why he was able to take out the first two Masters so easily. By the time he got to the third, the effect would have worn off, allowing for the remaining two to be able to fight back.


Neither won. It was a draw.


Palpatine was stronger in the Force?! Did you not see Yoda catch his lighting IN HIS HAND?! There are other items I could mention that would indicate that Yoda's mastery of the Force is just as strong as Palpatine's, but I won't. I will go so far as to say that I think that a Yoda v. Palpatine fight would last a long time as both are evenly matched.

Yes, this is me agreeing with all of this...and a touch more...

Yoda, was Uncle Lucas's avatar of the force...he was to me the mystery birth, chosen one of a previous generation(s) past, created from the force, by the force, for the force...this is all supposition on my part but seriously...he is the living embodiment of the force.

Yoda is infinitely more powerful in his connection and as a conduit for the force...period...no argument will be excepted, so just let is go (lol)  ::)

That Yoda chooses not to connect to the force as pruneface does is his choice not a measure of his skill or power.

If comparing power and skill with the force, without story lines and movie scripts attached...pruneface's true skills and power lay in his devious patient planning and puppet mastery of the political framework...for that his is the most powerful person in the galaxy without a doubt...but that does not compute to the most powerful force user.

Sure pruney has raw power, he is willing to sacrifice his body to force more power through him...power that Yoda caught and threw back at him.

Pruneface fought to a draw with Yoda...killed three senior council members...etc. because the writers and uncle Looney said so...period.

Pruneface had the power and skills to kill any Jedi one on one, face to face...except a handful...Mace, Yoda for sure, and a couple others but surely 99+%.

The four that showed up to arrest him...on the books, looking at numbers, it should have been a blood bath with Mace and at least one other Jedi walking out and pruneface dead and gone.

Just my thoughts   ;D

Yoda, during his duel with Palpatine, is dealing with the shock from the loss of all of the Jedi, many of whom he had personally instructed over his many years as Grand Master, as well as the Chosen One betraying the Order.  There's also the fact that Jedi have not been using the Force for knowledge and defense, but in aggression, during the Clone Wars... that the Dark Side had truly tainted everything they knew.

As for the 4 Masters - there has to be a bit of surprise that someone who has, for all intents and purposes, embodied the Republic they defend for many years has been at the heart of the conflict.  In Shatterpoint, Mace reveals that he has a deep attachment to the Republic, and that may have affected his fight, as well as that of the other masters.  Let's also add that the two known Sith Lords to that point had been taken down relatively easily - one by a Padawan, one by a Knight.  They had no way of knowing just how powerful Palpatine was, which may have led to them underestimating him.  Foolish, I know, and servant to a bad story in many ways...

yes but let us not forget that the only reason maul was killed by obi-wan was because he was taken by surprise when Obi wan jumped up and took Qui Gons saber.  you can tell in the movie that he is totally caught off guard.  and then dooku just got killed because anakin was a beast i wont argue for Dooku because he lost fair and square.

But being surprised by such an amateurish move, when Maul could have JUST KILLED Obi-Wan instead of sitting at the lip and making sparks...

yeah not his best decision.  hes still my favorite sith though.

This is the arrogance that the Sith are known for. "I've got you where I want you now. I'm going to sit here and watch you squirm, then kill you when I want to."

This attitude of complacency is what got Maul killed by a Padawan.

Complacency kills.

What got them all killed was crappy screenwriting.   ::)

This should be a bumper sticker. ;D

the comments i made made are only going by my observations in the movies, not novels, games, expanded universe or clonewars animated series. When i stated that Palpatine may be a tad better in the force i actually meant using it in combat and from what i witnessed in the fight scene with yoda vs sidious was when they were lightsaber dueling it seemed sidious was having trouble tracking yoda's movements.  When they started displaying force powers yes Yoda seemed more knowledable and even just as powerful by absorbing his lightning but when Sidious started hurling flying platforms Yoda seemed to fall a step behind when  he stops catching or  deflecting them he starts trying to dodge them, some by narrow margin. Which maybe that means in terms of power Yoda was stronger but he didnt seem to have the endurance of Sidious.

When  i made the arrogance statement i was quoting Yoda from the movie again when Obi-Wan stated Anakins abilities made him arrogant, and Yoda states a problem more and more with the Jedi even the older more experienced ones "TO SURE OF THEMSELVES"    that was type of arrogance i was referring to not that they have arrogant personality or views just that they are too sure of themselves.  But we all know we can argue these points forever and not get anywhere especially with all the contradictions in the star wars universe

This quote is what you are referring to:

Mace Windu: The boy has exceptional skills.
Obi-Wan: But he still has much to learn, Master. His abilities have made him... well arrogant.
Yoda: Yes. Yes. A flaw more and more common among Jedi. Too sure of themselves they are. Even the older, more experienced ones.

This is from a scene in Episode 2: Attack of the Clones. I literally just finished watching it 20 minutes ago. Your statement that I quoted at the time seems like a blanket statement covering Jedi as a whole. To me, personally, it indicates that you believe that ALL Jedi appear to be arrogant. I could be wrong with my interpretation, and if so, please correct me.

Yoda explains that he sees that this arrogance is starting to surface in many of the Jedi. Yes. But not all Jedi are this way. Also take into consideration the time period they are in. More and more star systems are leaving the Republic and joining the Separatists. The Jedi Order is coming less and less trusted by the Republic. The threat of war is looming on the horizon with the Droid armies being created.

I would think that said quote could also be due to there not having been a significant challenge to the Jedi Order as a whole in years...  even the "unknown" Sith who killed Qui-Gon.  There's this cloud of the Dark Side, but not a personified challenge to the Order itself.  The Jedi personify the will of the Senate and can (not to say that they do, but can) take over many situations.  If there's not someone challenging your views/opinions of yourself, you tend to fall into that trap of believing in your own legend...

We see arrogance in Anakin earlier in AotC:  "Jedi Business.  Go back to your drinks."  Not "this person has attempted assassination on the Senator of the Sovereign System of Naboo and is under arrest"... just "Jedi Business."  That's pretty arrogant, in a way - it basically says, "We're Jedi, and our involvement trumps local authority."

Well, Anakin actually WAS arrogant. For 10 years, they built him up with this "Chosen One" prophecy. When we finally see him in AOTC, he's starting to get tired of everything. We also don't know what lies Palpatine had been feeding him as well. At one point in the movie, when Anakin went to speak with Palpatine in an attempt to get him to urge Amidala to leave and go to Naboo, Anakin mentions that the guidance he had received from Palpatine had helped him in many ways.

We all know Palpatine to be the ultimate agent of deception. He set events in motion YEARS before they finally unfolded. His corruption of Anakin started almost immediately and directly contributed to his arrogance. Several times in AOTC Anakin mentioned that he was better than Obi-Wan. Better than Yoda. He sometimes said it in anger, and sometimes in jest. That arrogance was still there.

I don't mean to excuse his arrogance at all. But... would he still have been so arrogant had Palpatine not intervened? Also, with those 10 years of build up, how many times had he been told "Oh you're the Chosen One" or "You're going to save us all" or "You're the most gifted I have seen ever"?? If he was so gifted and talented, why was he still a Padawan in AOTC and not already a Jedi Knight?

Yes...this...we agree with this   ;D

I'd like to add another point to this.

With Anakin having been the Chosen One, I felt like they built him up with all this hype. They filled his head with all of this talk of prophecy and bringing balance to the Force. Yet they didn't let him do squat. Why not? It's like they were afraid to let him do anything. All of this talk about letting the will of the Force guide them, and they forced Anakin down a path that they themselves chose for him, not the Force.

In my opinion, I think that it would have been better told had we seen Anakin as a Jedi Knight in AOTC already. Leading Jedi and Republic troopers into battle against the Seperatists, all of the while having his mind twisted and warped by the lies and deceit fed to him by Palpatine. Actually have the Jedi Council show him and grant him the respect he deserved just BEING the Chosen One. It would have made his turn, his fall, and his betrayal that much MORE dramatic.

I dunno... sounded better in my head. :o Haha!! ::)

Let me play devil's advocate for a moment: While I really like Obi-Wan and I can't stand Anakin, the fact remains that Obi-Wan lost sight of who or what chose Anakin. My reason for stating this is that on Mustafar, he said, "You were The Chosen One".

If the Force chose him, than a fall would not end that choice. If Obi-Wan chose him, then a fall could and likely would end the choice. We can see through the OT that the Force did indeed choose Anakin to bring balance to the Force by killing Palpy. Obi-Wan, I think, lost sight of who did the choosing and instead thought that by defying Yoda, obeying Qui-gon, and training Anakin, that he was the one choosing and being responsible for Anakin's destiny.

If that is the case, then Obi-Wan, in some ways, gave an example of arrogance and self-importance for Anakin to follow.

Anyway, all that said, this topic is about these being the worst Jedi. I liked Kit Fisto, but really, when you look at people like Qui-gon being killed off by one Sith, these Jedi seemed to die über fast.

I see his comment and emotion being something much closer to a father and son relationship and not a teacher and student or master and apprentice...I saw no arrogance or self importance, I saw genuine grief and gut wrenching realization that his closest friend and by-proxy son had become a monster, betraying not only the Jedi order but all that binds a decent culture.

Anguish and pain...no arrogance or other related IMO.

Agreed that Anakin was written as a bit a of a spoiled pampered brat that needed a serious time out, a roshambo (every morning for a year), and isolation on Dagobah for 4-5yrs with Yoda...yeah, all of that...

In the end i just felt really sad for Obi-Wan he seemed to be very humble at heart and very kind hearted in nature, pride may be a form of arrogance i think he was very proud of anakin and may have affected his judgement even when Mace stated he didnt trust anakin at one point, Obi-wan always tried to defend and encourage Anakin, to me it was Obi-Wan who really embodied what it means to be a Jedi he was completely selfless. He seemed to be similar to Anakin in the fact that his emotions sometimes clouded his judgement. With Anakin it was his love for Padme that clouded his judgment and with Obi-Wan it was his love for Anakin i think it was part of their youth,  i think he loved Anakin like a son or brother and wasnt able to see the past Anakins arrogance and just couldnt fathom that Anakin would go down a dark path, i think a part of him died when Anakin turned

I just wanted to drop in and say that this conversation is epic and I loved reading it.  ;D

Thanks Ultra! Got a quick second to give us YOUR take???

My take kinda sucks compared to everyone else's.  I thought I knew alot of Star Wars lore, but yall humbled me.

I always thought that Palpy's thick shroud of the dark side slowed the minds of his enemies, allowing his to really catch them off guard, kinda the same way Dooku's darkness slowed Master Coleman Trebor and allowed him to get gunned down like a Padawan.

It doesn't sound near as cool as yall's explanations.

Thank you for your input Ultra. It doesn't matter how much or how little someone knows about the lore. That's what's great about this community here that y'all created! Everyone's input is welcome and valued!

I agree, the shroud is as valid as any...makes some sense to me  :)

All I asked for was that the film reflect something other than the writer said so...a but of slow motion or a blur of motion, something.

Honestly I would have taken an entirely different approach with this than uncle George did. I would have had about 5 more jedi there instead of mace, and I would have left him out of it completely. The emperor would have been moving way fast and I would've used the same type of shot that they use in smallville when Clark is bullet dodging. I would have saved Mace's death for after anakin was in the Vader suit, I would have had Mace attack in the scene where Vader and the emperor are looking out the widow at the death star's construction and had an epic fight between Vader and mace where Vader reveals to mace right before killing him that he is in fact anakin skywalker. 

That actually is not that bad idea.

The whole part felt like they were just doing it because they were running short on time and needed to move the story along.

I would have kept the same idea with how palpatine played weak to get anakin to turn I just would have used kit fisto instead of mace. I mostly want to save mace for the end because we have this whole build up/ hype throughout the prequils of anakin going dark and to have him kill a big player jedi in the vader suit in the prequil would have been epic. It would also help induce the idea that he is a monster now which is the basic idea from the original trilogy.

There are rumors that Mace survived his ordeal with Anakin and Palpatine. I haven't found anything specific, but wouldn't it be cool?

Never heard of that.... it would be cool, but you'd think it would've come up a few times later on ::)

I was never happy about the way Mace was killed I mean Palps tries to sneak attack lightning and is deflected, his reaction time was uncanny even in Episode 2 when Fett tries to sneak attack him and hit him with the fire, but Anakin easily cuts off his arm just never sat right with me. I mean lets face it Obi wan and Anakin were close in power and Obi-wan beat Anakin without taking any lightsaber damage, It just seems to me that Anakin would have failed to injure Mace without Palpatine directly assisting him even with a suprise attack. About rumors of Mace surviving seems  plausible since he took less lightning damage then Luke did, I mean they had Maul survive and he was cut in half. It would have been cool to see Mace in the first Force Unleashed game duking it out with Starkiller and Vader

What? The Chosen One was infinitely more powerful than Kenobi, the only reason he was defeated was his arrogance. Not that it has to do with anything....

Also let us not forget that Kenobi had more knowledge, wisdom and experience.

Anakin never proved he was infinetly more powerful than Obi IMO more talented than most jedi yes, when he turns to the Darkside his force powers may have even increased but with his wrecked body he also had new weakness. Heck he couldnt even overpower geezer Kenobi, for all anakins strengths he had  more mental weakness than alot of lesser Jedi, which is why he was always playing 2nd fiddle.  He IMO was the most overrated Jedi in the whole star wars universe

now now he was the chosen one, and have a massive amount of force power even more so when he lost limbs. They just couldnt truly display that in the 70s

I get the feeling you haven't seen or read about the Mortis Cycle so I'll stop arguing.

Wait, was there something about Palpatine's duel? ::)

Its sad they killed kit Fisto off without a good fight, As for the other two....

Any day a Jedi falls is a sad one indeed.

But wait, didn't I hear somewhere that the Sith were the misunderstood heroes? ;)

both sides believe themselves to be the "good" side. its all a matter of perspective. 

It has been said thus, but I was talking about Jedi not sith...when a sith dies an angel gets her wings  :)

When a Sith dies the scars they leave behind will echo throughout the galaxy muhahahaha

But much like a fart, are easily forgotten.

 ;D

I know you were talking about Jedi, which is why I was confused.... I could've sworn that the Jedi were somehow the villains ::)

That was the thought provided...but I find that concept completely and absolutely absurd.

So I have instead chosen to take the like minded approach of just making up my own reality for all things...I can fly if I eat Spam, no need to exercise because I am going to age backwards starting tomorrow anyway, I can deflect blasters with a wave of my hand, etc. and in my slice of reality...Jedi are good guys and sith are evil.

*****

I was reading over the Mace may be alive...I would welcome this...though I suspect not so much.

But the scene in question is a bit irradiating...I would have almost rather pruneface be a hologram or a robot or some such.

The scene is exposing things to radiation?

In my reality, obvious antagonists are actually antagonists and obvious protagonists such as Albert Wesker are given their due respect 8)

Wishes and fishes...limited edit tool...lol

****

It is a shame that those Jedi were cut down...what would have really set the situation is old pruney could possess people...that way it would be so much easier to accept annie a booboo slaughtering the younglings, choking his pregnant wife, etc.

That fight scene with pruneface would have been interesting if he took over their bodies for a moment to give him the second or two to clear the distance...that at least would have made some sense.

The sad thing is that this is supposed to be a very dramatic duel/scene with Anakin turning to the dark side and all but, fancy fx and wire work just isn't a good replacement for quality acting. I'm sorry but out of all the films I've seen in my life be it star wars or otherwise, the duel between Luke and Vader in ESB that inevitably ends with the line "I am your father" is one of the most dramatic duels/scenes I have ever seen in my life. Keeping in mind that I've seen thousands of movies throughout my life. 

Well obi wan got tired of anakin jumping around in ROTS thats why he cut anakins legs of....

I agree with Relmeob

U just noticed this post and watched that little scene and thought to myself "I have seen this before!"

Its when Obi Wan kills Maul.

I mean why would you stand still, while someone jumps almost over you, lands perfectly, force pulls a saber and strike? There is so much time in where maul could have reacted, that his death was just not right. He just stood there, watching obi do his thing and thats that. Just didnt feel right for me!

(my apoligies if someone has already mentioned this, not have the time to read through 10 pages of reactions xD)

Greetings,

CbrS*

Funny thing is, they aren't Jedi Knights...they're both Masters...

they should have made the scene in slow motion so that is was more obvious that palpatine was using the force to move near the speed of light... im assuming that was what happened to darth maul, even though there appears to be plenty of time for maul to react i like to pretend that it all happened in the blink of an eye. thats what makes sense to me any ways, if your force sensitive then it makes sense that your force abilities might be at their hight when your faced with a life and death situation

Saesee Tiin is looking down the hallway behind him~  probably contemplating whether or not he left the iron on at home... ;D

Wasn't Kit Fisto the Jedi battlemaster at the time of his death? I was also disappointed to see him fall so easily. Certain scenes in ROTS seemed rushed to me. I wouldn't have minded a 5 hour epic like Lord of the Rings.

No, it was Cin Drallig. Kit Fisto was on the Council, though.

So your saying a Jedi Battle master was taken down by a sith apprentice 

...who was the Chosen One and dramatically over powered

Correct. At that point he could have defeated anyone since his fate was already predetermined by the Force.

Correct. At that point he could have defeated anyone since his fate was already predetermined by the Lucas.

Fixed that for you  :-\

George Lucas is the Force? :o

Sorry.... off-topic, I know.... ;D

Sad. Truly.

But it was there.  You saw it your self.  I feel that the reason that these two were so powerful in the force was because they were both so intellectually apt.  It goes hand and hand most of the time.  Mace Windu, Ki-Adi Mundi, Yoda, Kenobi, and Palpatine are all very powerful and incredibly astute.  Then we have powerful idiots as well like Luke, Anakin pre-vader, Malek and Vader's secret apprentice.

I wouldn't really consider Anakin a Force Powerful Idiot. I mean, sure he wasn't as scheming and coniving as, say, Palpatine, but he was a great general. I mean, I usually don't go by the Clone Wars cartoons, but even in the books or by canon he was quite well advanced in his war skill. Also, don't forget his knack for machinery and customizations. It takes a great mind to do the things he did, the risks. But his emotion overwhelmed him and was easy to manipulate, which led to his "Downfall". Not to mention the elaborate system of clone apprentices and technology he helped devise "behind" Palpatine's back, which eventually led up to the Rebel Alliance. Some part of me made me thing that he wanted that to happen.

If I may, Mace used shatterpoints, which are essentially fault lines in beings, situations and objects where if exploited, allow the user (apparently very rare in beings) to essentially predict, have premonitions, and even alter the outcomes or a situation. That being said let's look at Mace who was one of the ''rare'' beings able to utilize this ability. In the midst of the duel Mace only saw one shatterpoint, that being that eliminating Palpatine (or old pruneface if you prefer) would ultimately stop the Sith. He didn't have the... Oh what's the word? We'll go with time for this as it seems appropriate. In the time from Mace cornering Pruneface, ''deforming'' him, and Anakin showing up, he didn't have the ability to see that Anakin's shatterpoint was his ''need'' for Palpatine to be alive in order to save Padme`. Failure to see this shatterpoint caused Mace to essentially think Anakin was saying he needs to stand trial due to the law. As far as this concerns it, I see Mace basically thinking ''He doesn't realize the danger and I do. I will do what I have to.'' This was Mace's fatal flaw. He didn't make the connection until it was too late. Basically he failed to use his greatest asset and that was his undoing. It's not that Anakin was ''better'' than Mace, but rather his judgement was clouded given the situation and ultimately he was defenseless.

That being said, even a Rodian bounty hunter that was re-written to shoot first could have gotten him is he was quick enough on the draw...  ;D

they were both powerful jedi masters but no match 4 sidous. US make a darth sidous hilt. it looks awsome. i think hasbro should make 1 at least. they made a fisto saber but not sidous

the emperor may have been the most powerful force user there ever was, He could have killed ALL the jedi himself had he not been so devoted to his grand machinations. He (and his master) created anakin through meditation. he single handedly controlled the galaxy, unchecked, for 20 years. He even manipulated Thrawn, who was most definitely the greatest military tactician to ever live in the star wars universe. He even stopped the "rule of two" (even though his apprentice did kill him, it wasn't for the same reasons that had been motivating the sith previously.  Banes paradigm for Sith motivation was so strong, so deeply embeded in the Force, that it drove all sith for a thousand years.  The emperor was the only one in a thousand years whose will and connection to the Force was strong enough to transform the Sith destiny.  when you see the Emperor's true impact on the galaxy and the future of all force users, it becomes clear that his power was unrivaled. Has the force ever granted anyone power even remotely close to this?

Hmmm...I hate pruneface.

I would say the next character written could be the most powerful...pushing planets into suns and such...sigh.

But with the EU characters I would agree with other on the net that these five are the band of the hand...strongest with the force without just being a fluff job from some fanboy writer...

Luke

Yoda

Pruneface

Vader

Sunrider

...these are the ones that Uncle Lucas nods his fleshy jowls at in approval  :)

The biggest shame in the Star Wars Universe was George Lucas directed the films after Empire Strikes Back. They just kept going downhill but its just my
opinion.  He would set the stage for a great battle and have it end in the cheasiest way.    I mean ok Maul may have been suprised by Obi force jump but he just stands there as Obi wan flips all the way over him and halves him, but yet when Anakin tries to do the same to Obi-Wan he is dismembered.  George I think focused more on the visuals instead of the story and somewhere lost his vision. I personally think Palpatine is a great Sith but this scene would have been better without Fisto and the rest getting pwned and just kept it a 1 on 1 scene with Windu and Palpatine to me it would have made more sense.

OR it could be that Obi-wan himself had done it to a cocky Darth Maul that was basking in his murder of a Jedi Master. And Obi-wan who had went through the war with his Padawan-turned-Knight (as well as brother in a sense) knew how to defeat a technique he had already used in his lifetime, hence why it didn't work when Anakin attempted it on Obi.

All speculation though.

ya when I read more about the back story and learned that Maul was so arrogant and that he had already failed one of his missions just before he died because of the same mistake then it makes more sense that obi was able to kill him like that.  killing a Jedi master was what Maul had been obsessing over his whole life and Palpatine was worried that his arrogance would get him killed. they just dont do a good job of making any of that clear in the movie

So, back to the title of this thread... in Episode 2, during the genosian coliseum... there's a jedi wielding a blue saber during the fight leading up to Jango's decapitation. Watch in the background to the left of the space rhino... this space cadet is just swinging at absolutely nothing. Go check.

That is why I hate things being shot with Green screens.  I personally felt that things were way too rushed in the prequels even though GL had more money to do things he wanted than he did in the OT.  I am hoping that Disney takes a lesson from this and does more live action shots so that the actors/actresses do not feel so awkward and things such as what you have pointed toward are not left unchecked. 

The fight of Sidious vs 4 Jedi was a huge disappointment to me and I hope that if they ever have the chance to go back and add to this scene they take the time to make the fight look more spectacular than stab, die, stab die, 2 on 1 with half hearted strikes, die, and then Mace kicking your butt after everyone else dies. 

This fight needs to be expanded upon greatly.  Even the books written to fill the gaps of the prequels does not address this sufficiently .

If I may jump in here (and I'll probably get hacked to pieces!), we would ALL love to see a huge, LONG, 30 minute fight scene where the Sith Lord and joint most powerful force wielder in the GALAXY takes on 3 insignificant Jedi and tears them a new....erm (family show!) "beats them up".....before having an EPIC duel with one of the heads of the Jedi council. Obviously, for the storyline to work, Sidious HAS to lose to Windu, so that Anakin can fulfil his destiny, betray the Jedi and cause Windu's defeat (note I don't say DEATH, because I don't personally believe he died from the fall, or from only two blasts of Force Lightning, and losing an arm certainly wasn't terminal!)

The scene could have seen Nick Gillard double for Sidious, just as he does for Dooku (Sorry, Chris Lee and Ian McDiarmid are BRILLIANT actors, but as so many have said on here, their swords skills are lacking, though they'd probably still both beat ME!)

But here's the thing, FIRST GL made it clear that he wanted the faces of the combatants to be very visible, so you KNOW it's them throwing the lightsabers around; SECOND, that puts an automatic restraint on what you can show, because neither are up to Ewan McGregor, Liam Neeson or Ray Park(!) duelling standards! THIRD, and perhaps most damning of all, American audiences are not seen as having enough of an attention span to be able to watch, and appreciate, the intricacies of such a long, extended, fight scene!

So what do we get? Stab - dead, stab - dead, slash - dead, then duke it out with Mace Windu; lose (on purpose) have Anakin come in, lop Mace's arm off and seal the deal!

I would have LOVED to see more of Sidious' skills, even beyond the two fight scenes he features in (I trust nobody argues with the sabering in the Senate chamber as being "unimpressive"?) in fact, here's a thought........how about we have an added scene in Episode One, before the first appearance officially, where we see Maul practising with his Master, and we hear Sidious tell him that he's ready, then they walk out onto the Coruscant balcony where they discuss "revealing ourselves to the Jedi".

On that forward spin though, it is unique! The Jedi would NOT have seen a move like that before, because it is basically a very aggressive version of an Ataru rotation (which, watching Yoda, tend to be more somersaults and flips) So yeah, perhaps they were taken by surprise by an unfamiliar move, for the 2 tenths of a second it took Palpatine to kill them.

Palpatins starting skill was a Force Scream while pouncing the masters in my opinion.
I cant make this scene work for me without it since the Jedi just stand there petrified and hastily yet not skillful try to ward of the stabs and slices of the old man.
While Windu starts to fight to his full potential only after he had retreated to another room.
And since Jedi are not allowed to learn about the dark side i am sure that this force power could have caught them off guard.
That is to consider since originating from a force user with his powerlevel it could already kill a "normal" human and at least fill a Jedi with fear if not worth robbing the masters of the opportunity to face this foe with their full potential from the very beginning.

Uff especially when I think about who got slayn in mere seconds Im not absolutely sure but I had the feeling that Colar is an even better swordsman than Kit which already is famous as a muster of absolute mastery of his form with individual perks to it which surpase the understanding of many knights.

Well thats how i explain the fast slaughter to me so that i may watch that without a hurting sensation ^^

The scream you refer to could be a Sith version of Yoda's "Force Valor" (see ep.II)

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Force_scream (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Force_scream)

This.

I read a GL approved novelisation or script draft or some such thing once.

It explained that Palpatine had been expending a great deal of energy keeping his powers hidden while having Jedi over for tea and biscuits for years. When he threw off the sheepskin, the wolf unleashed a blast of Dark Side energy that left the Jedi reeling in confusion.
Apparently he was projecting fear and a sense of loss, using Force telekinesis to add enormous weight of resistance to their limbs, and projecting mental images of himself attacking from multiple angles at once.

All of which sounds cool on paper, but on film it translated into a bunch of senior Jedi getting carved up like stupefied dodos that had never seen a lighsabre before....

It also projects the idea that Palpatine was some kind of "Superman Sith" who should have been unbeatable, even by Windu. I'm not sure I like that idea much.

It sounds to me that people are seriously trying to "justify" plot armor.

Sorry people but the only time that people die in fiction is usually when the writers want them to, such as Aeris in FF7 as a separate example.  I'm not sure why the characters couldn't cast a Phoenix-Down on her or even have her rest in an inn or tent.  I mean, what's the difference between being stabbed with a sword and being blown apart by a giant reality-bending anti-gravity elemental beam that tears the very fabric of the space-time-continuum and literally shows the entire solar-system being obliterated into particles?

Basically, the answer is plot-armor.

I will add this...I loathe sidious without limits...I would have preferred he be a clone and was cut down...you could still have the annie boo boo lose all sense and go sith due to the situation...this way the clone giving up all of its worthless life in a burst of evil energy...no never mind...I fall back on the fact I hate sidious on every level.

For a Jedi, loathing Sidious is perhaps the point. He had fairly similar feelings towards Jedi. ;)

Yoda didn't fail, he got discouraged and wussed out. Although instead of blocking the lightning, he should'dve done what Revan did. (Now THAT's handing you your ass on a cortosis platter. ;D)

So what DID Revan do? *I'm curious*

He absorbed and sent it right back at her, saying "I am Revan reborn, and before me you are nothing."

What is that from? It have been an age since I played the original KOTOR.

It is from the book "Revan".  It started out really slow and seemed to be more of a Luke and Mara story but once you got past that part, it got really interesting.  I wish they would do one from an earlier than that time period where we get to see Revan against the Mandos.

Then it's the perfect time to play through it again! I just finished up another play through myself. Time for Kotor2 :D

there are a lot of examples of arrogant jedi in the expanded universe.  Master Windu was one of the few to gain complete mastery of the shatterpoint technique, which allows you to see fracture lines and breaking points in everything from physical objects to beings emotions and thoughts.  He saw before any of the other masters that anakin was connected to palpatine through the darkside.   He knew that palpaitine was twisting anakins perception and loyalties but understimated palpatine and believed he was merely being used by Sidious for a long time. they all knew that anakin was stronger than, or at least had the potential to be stronger than any other Jedi, but Windu and the rest were basically trying to discipline anakin cuz they knew he was not in control of his emotions.  The fact that they were worried about this and still couldnt see it happening may or may not be arrogance.  But if Windu had told anakin about palpatine sooner then things may have turned out different.  Palpatine was a few steps ahead of the jedi the whole time and he made his final move with anakin when he knew that the other masters would find out about him and try to kill him.  He arranged for general greivous to get killed by Obi Wan as a trap to get obi wan out of the picture, as he knew that he would never persuade anakin to make the plunge with obi wan's voice or reason around.  He convinced anakin that he was the only one that cared about him and wasnt trying to use him, and then told him that he was the sith lord and that being a sith didnt make him a bad guy, he told anakin that the jedi would come to assasinate him, and that when they did he said he would not fight back so they would kill him in cold blood just for being a sith. and thats what it looked like when anakin walked in the room and palpatine pretended to be week. Palpatine was a mastermind, but he was equally powerful in the force, and part of his ability to manipulate came from the force, he could read the future and influence the minds of thousands of beings at a given time.  He was more powerful than Yoda and Yoda could feel it.  He fled from Sidious because he knew that he would die if he kept fighting and he didnt want the jedi to die with him. 

You've got to admit that Lucas didn't do these characters any justice in the films considering how interesting they were developed in Clone Wars, The Clone Wars animations, books etc. These scenes where just rushed in my opinion. I know there is meant to be force powers behind what’s going on with Jedi and Sith in these scenes and we all loved to dream about what was going on with Darth an Obi before all of this was really solidified in books and filsm etc., but come on! Let’s see what happens in the next few years. Can't get as worse than the raw deal batman fans have had. Batfleck... really!

Ok! My 'Two cents'  ;)

This scene was completely -WRONG- and obviously rushed by GL ( BAD GL! BAAAD! *pulls out the nerf bat and gives him a severe nerfing* )

Anyone who has read the books or has watched the Clone Wars series would know that these 3 Jedi Knights were some of the best in the order!
Someone used the experimental 'DERP' ray on them didn't they?!  (*ZAP!! "Deeeerrrp! . . AHH! I iz Stabbed!" *   :o )

I grimace every time I see the beginning of this scene . . . The rest of it is cool though!  ;D

Truly sad, being members of the council you would think that they would last at least a little longer.  Maybe even more disappointing is how Kit-fitsco dies just a little bit later, sad because he was one of my favorite Jedi of all time.

If you read the book, it goes into much greater detail about that scene.  I think everyone was in too big of a hurry to get to Mace vs Sidious to include everything that happened in the book.  The book does a much better job of explaining how Sidious caught two off guard. 









Spoiler:  He didn't leap but threw 2 lightsabers directly at them while recording a message to make them look like they were assassins to play back to Anakin at a later time.  They were caught off guard thinking that Sidious was hiding somewhere in the room and was not exactly Chancellor Palpatine. 

Man, the novelization is such a good read. I especially love the intro.

The intro is absolutely fantastic.  If that doesn't get you hooked on the book, there's something very wrong with you lol

I agree with what some have said earlier: they should have shown a protracted fight in which Sidious holds off all four of them, and then gradually takes each of them down one-by-one. At the very least, Lucas needed to show that these Jedi weren't completely useless. Ugh.  >:(

I don't know what's worse... that scene, or the earlier part when Obi-Wan says "Sith Lords are our specialty."

Uh, what??? The only time he and Anakin faced a Sith Lord they got their butts kicked, so what in the world is he talking about? He was so smug about it, too. It was awful.

But worst part in the movie was probably "I've got the high ground Anakin!" LMAO, as if that were really important all of a sudden to Jedi who can practically fly. And this is while Anakin is standing on a rock floating in LAVA as if nothing were happening...

Possibly the stupidest thing I've ever seen.

I know Lucas just frelled this up, but here's something:

Query: What if Mace WANTED the remaining council members eliminated by Sidious? Anakin VS Obi Wan was sure to happen eventually, and Mace could have likely iced Yoda... By the end of the Palpatine fight Mace was ready to kill Palps and take over the Republic.

Food for thought.

I doubt Windu would have taken over the Republic, I find it far more like him to force the Senate to grant the Jedi Order the autonomy it once had a few millenia before and do things their own way.

Watching ROTS with all the lightsaber fights the worst one was sidious vs 4 Council Masters.  Taking one out immediately isn't a big stretch but two then a third moments later is too much for a Sith Lord who believe lightsabers were beneath him.

Regarding Anakin attempting to leap over Obi-Wan rather than doing something more sensible, it was suicidal and to me that what it was: a suicide attempt by Jedi.  Which in turn leads to Anakin shouting "I hate you" to Obi-Wan.  Why did he say that?  Because Obi-Wan could not and would not kill him and left Anakin to suffer.  And it is also a good place to say that is where the Anakin Skywalker persona disappeared and Vader became more or less permanent.

As a sidenote, it is very clear that Anakin didn't want to kill Obi-Wan despite being all evil and Sithy and feeling betrayed.  Why?  1. Because he was just as attached to Obi-Wan as he was to Padme.  2. Is it truly believable that Anakin wiped out dozens of Jedi Knights and Masters (this includes Battlemaster Cin Drallig, the head lightsaber instructor versed in all seven Forms) as well as countless younglings and Padawans but fails to kill Obi-Wan?  I think not.  Obi-Wan may be a lightsaber genius and super awesome but he's not the Chosen One who appears to be able to do anything if he wants to.